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Episode 4

Backdraft | S1E4

In this episode of Retromade, we travel back to 1991 for a blockbuster Kurt Russell film with a star-studded cast and impressive special effects - Backdraft!

I'm joined by Jared Tockstein from The Hyper Space: Podcasting in the 25th Century

Jared is a broadcasting professional of over 25 years. Jared has a passion for film and sci-fi, which he has turned into a giant waste of time with his podcast The Hyper Space. (wink)

Check out Jared's show: www.thehyperspace.net

Please get in touch to tell me what you think - RetromadePodcast@gmail.com

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Transcript
Speaker:

Katie:

Hello.

Katie:

Hello, I'm Katie and this is Retro Made Your Pop Culture Rewind.

Katie:

Let's continue our exploration of the best of the eighties and nineties.

Katie:

Today we continue our examination of Ultimate everyman Kurt Russell,

Katie:

with one of his most notable roles.

Katie:

We will travel back to May of 1991 for an amazing visual effects

Katie:

experience with an All-star cast.

Katie:

And today I am delighted to be joined by Jared

Katie:

Toine.

Jared Tockstein:

Hello.

Katie:

He is from the Hyperspace Podcasting in the 25th century.

Katie:

Jared, thank you so much for joining me on Retro Made.

Jared Tockstein:

It's my pleasure.

Jared Tockstein:

I am very happy to be here and I love your show, Katie.

Katie:

Oh, thank you so much.

Katie:

I'm glad to hear that feedback is always welcome.

Katie:

Now tell us a little bit about your show.

Katie:

I also very much like the hyperspace.

Jared Tockstein:

Well, thank you., the Hyperspace is a show that I

Jared Tockstein:

do with my buddies, Matt and Mike.

Jared Tockstein:

And, , , the DNA of our show is, all, being children of the seventies, uh,

Jared Tockstein:

growing up in this time of Star Wars and Steven Spielberg and Indiana Jones

Jared Tockstein:

and, and all those fantastic movies which kind of shaped our young lives.

Jared Tockstein:

That's where we start.

Jared Tockstein:

And we've, we talk about modern stuff as you know.

Jared Tockstein:

Um, geek culture these days is a massive business if, as you can tell, behind

Jared Tockstein:

me with all this junk in my house.

Jared Tockstein:

And we, we sort of, , revel in being, um, middle-aged children.

Katie:

I love it so much.

Katie:

That's a really good way of putting it.

Katie:

Middle-aged children

Katie:

and geek culture.

Katie:

I like it.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

So that's kind of what we're about.

Jared Tockstein:

Um, and if you want to come check us out sometime,

Katie:

Yes.

Katie:

Everyone check out the hyperspace.

Katie:

It's fun.

Katie:

It's very fun.

Katie:

Little something for everyone, I think.

Jared Tockstein:

Well, we try to be diverse in that way.

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, don't just focus on the stuff from the seventies and eighties.

Jared Tockstein:

We talk about some new stuff, , some stuff that we en enjoy currently.

Jared Tockstein:

, Katie, I believe, uh, you, you're a fan of Lost the TV show.

Jared Tockstein:

, we've done a few episodes on that so hopefully you'll find something you like,

Katie:

Indeed.

Katie:

Well, without further ado, let's open the time capsule from May of 1991.

Jared Tockstein:

man.

Katie:

So this is the latest movie , that I've done so far on the show.

Katie:

Now, Jared, we'll get into some of your experience in 1991, but

Katie:

to set the stage a little bit,

Katie:

according to Nielsen ratings, this is a great lineup, the top ratings because

Katie:

it's an awesome season for women on tv.

Jared Tockstein:

Uh oh.

Jared Tockstein:

What do we got?

Katie:

We have Cheers, Roseanne, I still watch that today.

Katie:

It's a good show.

Katie:

She went off to the deep end a little bit, but it was progressive Fritz's time.

Katie:

, a different world.

Katie:

The Cosby Show, Murphy Brown.

Katie:

Empty nest.

Katie:

The Golden Girls, of course, designing women murder she wrote, , so

Katie:

that's a lot of women right there.

Jared Tockstein:

Sure.

Katie:

And then we have Full House and Family Matters, which, I think the,

Katie:

that was part of the T G I F block

Katie:

at the time.

Katie:

And when I looked it up, I think, so this was about two years in, I think

Katie:

that started in 89, I want to say.

Katie:

Oh yes.

Katie:

Friday night sitcom block that aired on a b ABC starting in 89.

Katie:

And obviously the name comes from the popular phrase, thank God it's Friday.

Katie:

The lineup for T G I F.

Katie:

in 91, , was full house, then Family Matters, then Perfect Strangers,

Katie:

and then going places, which only ran for one season and it was

Katie:

replaced by Baby Talk in March.

Katie:

Also,

Jared Tockstein:

I don't remember

Katie:

not, well known.

Katie:

Yeah, so going places.

Katie:

Starred Alan Rock, Jerry Levine, who I just guessed on a show about Teen Wolf.

Katie:

, Jerry Levine plays the coach in Teen Wolf, so that's fun.

Katie:

Heather Lawler.

Jared Tockstein:

awesome.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

, and then the supporting cast also had Stacy Keenan and Holland Taylor.

Katie:

So there's some famous people in it, but it clearly didn't do well.

Katie:

And then Baby Talk also only ran for one year, but also it had George Clooney,

Katie:

Scott Bayo and Tony Dan's voice.

Katie:

It was actually loosely based on the, look who's talking movie.

Katie:

So

Katie:

kind of strange.

Katie:

So Tony Dances voiced the baby,

Katie:

but again, neither of those shows despite their cast, um, lasted for very long.

Jared Tockstein:

wow.

Jared Tockstein:

I Baby talk seemed to me like it was gonna be, uh, a, a tribute

Jared Tockstein:

show to, uh, Luke who's talking.

Jared Tockstein:

That's seems the era specific.

Jared Tockstein:

So, yeah.

Katie:

And then rounding out the top shows, , includes Matt Locke, coach

Katie:

with Craig t Nelson and who's the boss, which was one of my favorites.

Katie:

Do any of these sound familiar

Jared Tockstein:

Um,

Katie:

any of those shows?

Jared Tockstein:

uh, I did watch Coach, um, pretty religiously.

Jared Tockstein:

My parents loved it.

Jared Tockstein:

And, uh, of course the Golden Girls, uh, I believe by the early

Jared Tockstein:

nineties they were wrapping it up.

Jared Tockstein:

And, , some of the T G F T G I F lineup, of course.

Jared Tockstein:

So, um, if you can hear a dog scratching at my door, he's trying to get in here.

Jared Tockstein:

I apologize for the extraneous noise.

Katie:

Oh, what kind of dog do you have?

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, he is a Yorkie.

Katie:

Oh, so he could just sit in your lap this

Jared Tockstein:

no, he's a real pain in the butt, actually.

Jared Tockstein:

, I'm sorry for any noise.

Jared Tockstein:

I'll try to keep that to a minimum.

Katie:

No worries.

Jared Tockstein:

But, yeah, the T G I F lineup , I watched.

Jared Tockstein:

, but, , you know, usually Friday nights, , I was usually out at

Jared Tockstein:

this, at this particular year, I was, like hanging with , my buddies.

Jared Tockstein:

So, , I didn't watch a whole lot of TV on Friday nights,

Jared Tockstein:

but I do remember that lineup.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

You were too cool for TV on

Katie:

Friday nights at at that age.

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, there was no way Jared Toine was

Jared Tockstein:

sitting at home on a Friday night,

Katie:

No way.

Katie:

No way.

Katie:

As

Katie:

we'll get into, , I also wanted to note there were a few shows that

Katie:

you'll, that, that you will all hopefully remember that premiered.

Katie:

So they weren't necessarily topping the Nielsen ratings, but they premiered,

Katie:

, in this season in 91 Home Improvement with, , Tim, the Tool Man Taylor,

Jared Tockstein:

mm-hmm.

Katie:

step by step, which, , ultimately became part of the T G I F lineup.

Katie:

Dinosaurs.

Katie:

Do you remember that show with

Katie:

the, like real

Katie:

dinosaurs,

Jared Tockstein:

yes.

Jared Tockstein:

It was made by, , Jim Henson's company.

Katie:

oh, was it

Jared Tockstein:

They made the puppets for that show.

Katie:

remember really liking it.

Katie:

, I mean, I'll have to maybe check out an episode to see if it, , stands the test

Katie:

of time, but I remember liking that show.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

It was different for sure.

Katie:

Definitely different.

Katie:

And then Rug Rats, which I think was on Nickelodeon.

Katie:

It was a cartoon,

Katie:

, salute Your Shorts was, , and Ren and Stimpy show were a couple

Katie:

of other kids' shows during that time that were introduced.

Katie:

And then Silk Stockings, do you remember

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, was that on the USA Network?

Jared Tockstein:

I

Katie:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

now.

Jared Tockstein:

I can't say that, you know, I, I watched it, but it was one of

Jared Tockstein:

those things that sort of like everybody knew about back then.

Jared Tockstein:

It was a little provocative, you know,

Katie:

it was,

Jared Tockstein:

almost R-rated.

Katie:

yeah, it was very seductive.

Katie:

And the male actor in that Rob Estes, I remember thinking he was super hot.

Katie:

So I very much liked this show.

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

Fantastic.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

Yes.

Katie:

And then, the notable finales in 91.

Katie:

The 356th and final episode of CBS's, second longest running

Katie:

series was Dallas, so it was second only to gun smoke apparently,

Katie:

but it ended in 91.

Jared Tockstein:

I remember, I think my parents actually watched

Jared Tockstein:

that all the way up until the end.

Katie:

I

Katie:

don't think I've ever seen an episode of Dallas

Jared Tockstein:

you know, I'm sorry to digress, but my parents have recently

Jared Tockstein:

discovered the magic of these apps, like Tuby and stuff, and they recently, they're

Jared Tockstein:

both in their mid seventies and they went back last year , and they would just

Jared Tockstein:

watch Dallas binge it for hours at a time.

Jared Tockstein:

I'd call him and he is like, Hey, we're watching Dallas.

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, can you call back later?

Katie:

Is this the who Shot Jr.

Katie:

Show.

Katie:

Okay.

Katie:

I'm familiar with the reference, but I've not seen the

Jared Tockstein:

Oh yeah, that was a huge thing in like 1980.

Jared Tockstein:

It was like everybody, and I remember that as a little kid.

Katie:

I'm kind of surprised it ran all the way into 91, but

Katie:

it did.

Katie:

And then 21 Jump Street with Johnny Depp.

Katie:

I loved that show.

Katie:

That ended in 91, apparently.

Jared Tockstein:

Holy cow.

Jared Tockstein:

I didn't even know it had started by then.

Katie:

It was, 87, I think maybe it was the first season

Katie:

or 88.

Katie:

One of those, , Hey dude, which was a Nickelodeon show, dude.

Katie:

Did you watch that at all?

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, a couple,

Katie:

old for it.

Jared Tockstein:

I, but I remember it was about them on a ranch.

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, I wasn't, a religious follower of it, but certainly was aware of it.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

It was you know, a kid's teenage show.

Katie:

I liked it.

Katie:

Head of the Class, which I remember thinking was a good show, and Twin Peaks,

Katie:

which I think they made a remake recently

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah, it was actually a sequel to the, , to the original show.

, Katie:

another season of it, just

, Katie:

many years later.

Jared Tockstein:

Set many years la like one of the legacy sequels.

Katie:

Ah, okay.

Jared Tockstein:

I was really into that show the first season,

Jared Tockstein:

but , it got really weird and I kind of fell off in the second.

Jared Tockstein:

But, it certainly has its fans.

Jared Tockstein:

Twin Peaks.

Katie:

I do remember it being different my parents maybe watched it

Jared Tockstein:

much different.

Katie:

So did I miss anything that you were watching around this time that wasn't

Katie:

super popular or premiered or ended?

Jared Tockstein:

No, I think you certainly, you hit a lot

Jared Tockstein:

of , the highlights, , But at this time I was more into movies.

Jared Tockstein:

I was just all about movies.

Jared Tockstein:

If I was watching something on tv, it was usually a movie.

Jared Tockstein:

, and , of course going to movies , that would consume my life at that time.

Jared Tockstein:

And when I did watch tv, it was usually with, you know, my

Jared Tockstein:

folks , in the evening or something.

Katie:

Do

Katie:

you remember any specific movie memories from this time?

Jared Tockstein:

oh yeah, I mean, back draft certainly is one.

Katie:

Good.

Jared Tockstein:

I think in 91, one of the big things for me that summer was,

Jared Tockstein:

, that was the summer of Terminator two.

Katie:

Yes, it was.

Katie:

Yep.

Jared Tockstein:

And that, of course, for a young science fiction

Jared Tockstein:

nerd was sort of like the pinnacle.

Jared Tockstein:

, 91 was also the summer that, Robinhood Prince of Thieves was

Katie:

was a phenomenon, wasn't it?

Katie:

I

Katie:

remember that.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah, I actually, I saw that a few times in the theater.

Jared Tockstein:

And, back then even, , Kevin Costner's terrible disappearing accent,

Jared Tockstein:

, didn't really bother me that much cuz I thought it was such a fun movie.

Jared Tockstein:

And, , this was also the summer that, , bill and Ted's bogus journey came out.

Jared Tockstein:

And

Katie:

the second

Jared Tockstein:

the second one, and I love Bill and Ted and that was one

Jared Tockstein:

that I saw multiple times that Summer

Katie:

Summer movies.

Katie:

Yeah, that was a whole thing.

Jared Tockstein:

Oh yeah, it was a big deal.

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, it's still somewhat big deal today, but it felt like back then,

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, it felt like, you know, big and special and, , it was something

Jared Tockstein:

you look forward to all year long.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

It's a different movie going experience now, which is why

Katie:

I like to, go back in time

Jared Tockstein:

When, we start to talk about backdraft and my

Jared Tockstein:

specific memories of that, do you remember, it's a, it's, did you

Jared Tockstein:

have in your town where you grew up?

Jared Tockstein:

The dollar movies.

Katie:

We didn't, I don't think, because.

Katie:

I didn't live in a big city.

Katie:

It was a smaller, so we only had one movie theater and it was the regular movie

Jared Tockstein:

gotcha.

Jared Tockstein:

Gotcha.

Jared Tockstein:

Oh,

Jared Tockstein:

well

Katie:

must have lived in the big old city there,

Jared Tockstein:

well, I was, I grew up in, uh, Knoxville, Tennessee, and it's

Jared Tockstein:

the third largest city in Tennessee.

Jared Tockstein:

I did not see Backdraft in the first run theaters.

Jared Tockstein:

I saw it at the dollar movies.

Jared Tockstein:

And the dollar movies, they're kind of like what I refer to as movie purgatory.

Jared Tockstein:

Like it's after they leave the first run theaters, but before

Jared Tockstein:

they appear on home video,

Katie:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Tockstein:

They would always make a stop at the dollar movies.

Jared Tockstein:

And so that's where I would see a lot of films that I

Jared Tockstein:

missed, , on their initial release.

Jared Tockstein:

And you could still see 'em , in a, a nice theatrical setting,

Jared Tockstein:

but it only cost you a dollar.

Katie:

It was actually only a dollar.

Katie:

It wasn't like five bucks

Jared Tockstein:

No, I mean, well, when it started in the early

Jared Tockstein:

nineties, it was still a dollar.

Jared Tockstein:

Of course as time went on, it got to be a buck 50 and $2, but you

Jared Tockstein:

could still , see a movie in a theater for a pretty good deal.

Jared Tockstein:

But the, of course, the concession stands were still full price.

Jared Tockstein:

So if you wanted to maintain that, , discount, you had

Jared Tockstein:

to sneak in,, your snacks.

Jared Tockstein:

But, um,

Katie:

You would never have done that though.

Jared Tockstein:

No, I never did

Katie:

No.

Jared Tockstein:

the, uh, but dollar movies are a thing that I think today

Jared Tockstein:

are probably almost gone because there's like no time between, for

Jared Tockstein:

example, creed three, , I saw that and like a month later I saw on

Jared Tockstein:

Facebook it was available to stream

Katie:

You're right.

Jared Tockstein:

there's just no time anymore between.

Katie:

and to that point, creed three, was a well marketed movie,

Katie:

So imagine if it wasn't, , you have zero chance then it seems like

Katie:

to kind of make it in the theaters.

Jared Tockstein:

Oh yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

, and it's just crazy to me these days that, you know, within weeks of it even

Jared Tockstein:

being released to theaters and Creed Three was not an insignificant film.

Jared Tockstein:

As you said, it made a lot of money.

Jared Tockstein:

It was very successful, but boom, you could watch it at home four weeks later.

Jared Tockstein:

It's, uh, it

Jared Tockstein:

kind

Katie:

even saw the Avatar movie.

Katie:

I mean, I don't know how long ago that was released,

Jared Tockstein:

yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

Avatar

Katie:

avatar was such a big deal that probably was in theaters forever,

Katie:

the original

Jared Tockstein:

was, it was.

Jared Tockstein:

And um, it's just a, it's fascinating to me as a V h S kid,

Jared Tockstein:

that it, it's changed so much.

Jared Tockstein:

This theatrical experience.

Jared Tockstein:

And certainly I wouldn't have been able to see Backdraft in the way I

Jared Tockstein:

did if, not for the dollar movies.

Katie:

I like it.

Katie:

That's a nice blast from the past.

Katie:

Thanks, Jared.

Katie:

, yeah, let's get back to 91 because yeah, present day doesn't have

Katie:

the same feel to it clearly.

Katie:

Now, since you weren't like a little child,

Katie:

I am going to just breeze through some of the cartoons and then get

Katie:

into some of the stuff that might have been more up your alley.

Katie:

The lineup for Saturday morning was the Muppet Babies, and this

Katie:

is their last season in 91.

Katie:

And I Love yeah, so this was their last go Garfield and Friends,

Katie:

the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Katie:

I remember very vividly that that was such a huge deal.

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

I mean, , I'm a girl , but I still very much remember it.

Katie:

Where's Waldo Inspector Gadget?

Katie:

I remember watching that after school

Katie:

more so, but I loved Inspector Gadget.

Jared Tockstein:

Yep.

Katie:

Penny Brain.

Jared Tockstein:

Dr.

Jared Tockstein:

Claw.

Katie:

Ooh, that's pretty good.

Jared Tockstein:

Thanks.

Katie:

It's like you should have a job in voiceover work

Jared Tockstein:

Oh, if only if anyone out there is listening to the Retro Made

Jared Tockstein:

show and would like to offer me a job,

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

Listen to this voice, you

Katie:

guys.

Jared Tockstein:

find me in the show notes.

Katie:

indeed.

Katie:

And then of course saved by the bell.

Katie:

I don't know if that was a little too, were you too old for Saved by the bell?

Jared Tockstein:

No,

Katie:

the girls are pretty

Jared Tockstein:

Saved by the Bell, I'll never forget, this was a few years

Jared Tockstein:

later, but I was sitting with my buddies.

Jared Tockstein:

We had taken a trip after we were.

Jared Tockstein:

After we graduated high school in 93 and there was a saved by the Bell

Jared Tockstein:

marathon on, we were in Florida and we stayed in our room all day and watched

Jared Tockstein:

this Saved by the Bell Marathon.

Katie:

It's good, right?

Jared Tockstein:

You just get sucked into

Katie:

You do.

Jared Tockstein:

And yeah, there was pretty ladies on there too,

Katie:

Yep.

Katie:

Cute guys too.

Katie:

So a little something for all of

Katie:

us.

Jared Tockstein:

Something for everybody.

Katie:

it's true.

Katie:

So we'll move past that since, so you were a teenager in 91.

Katie:

What were you wearing?

Katie:

What was your fashion sense?

Katie:

Cuz we're gonna talk fashion in the nineties.

Jared Tockstein:

I was wearing in 1991, , one of my favorite, my favorite

Jared Tockstein:

band of all time is the Beastie Boys.

Jared Tockstein:

And

Jared Tockstein:

, and in 1991, around this era, I was dressing like the Beastie Boy.

Jared Tockstein:

I wanted to be like them.

Jared Tockstein:

So it was probably baggy jeans, , an Adidas t-shirt

Jared Tockstein:

and, , of course Adidas shoes.

Jared Tockstein:

Maybe, I guess like a skater would look,

Katie:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

That's kind of how I dressed.

Jared Tockstein:

It was a lot of t-shirts, , jeans, Adidas sneakers, that's sort

Jared Tockstein:

of how I rolled back then.

Katie:

How did you wear your hair

Katie:

when you were 16 ish?

Jared Tockstein:

It was, man, if I had a picture of it, I

Katie:

I do need a 16 year old picture of Jared.

Katie:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

okay.

Jared Tockstein:

It was long on top,

Katie:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Tockstein:

shaved all the way around and pulled back to a ponytail.

Katie:

I do wish I had a picture of that, but that was very much a hairstyle that

Katie:

a lot of guys had in the early nineties.

Katie:

And there's different terms for it that we'll get into, curtain is a

Katie:

hairstyle where it's long fringe divided, either in the middle

Katie:

or parted, , but some kid, like you pulled it back like

Jared Tockstein:

Well, yeah, but if it was down, it would just part in the middle and

Katie:

yep.

Jared Tockstein:

like into my

Katie:

Into, yes.

Katie:

So picture like listeners, this was like a Leonardo DiCaprio,

Katie:

like kind of picture that,

Katie:

or like skater

Jared Tockstein:

Well, the thing I actually modeled my hair after

Jared Tockstein:

was River Phoenix in, , the opening of Indiana Jones.

Jared Tockstein:

In the last crusade, he had this mop of hair

Jared Tockstein:

that just fell , it was short on the sides and he would,

Jared Tockstein:

he was wearing a hat a lot.

Jared Tockstein:

But that's when I saw that, I was like, man, that's the

Jared Tockstein:

coolest cuz I love Indiana Jones.

Jared Tockstein:

So I was like, man, if I could have a haircut like young Indiana Jones

Jared Tockstein:

and dress like the Beastie Boys, then my life will be complete.

Jared Tockstein:

And

Jared Tockstein:

So that's where I got it from and my mom hated it.

Katie:

Yeah, I'm sure she did.

Katie:

I'm sure all of the moms did, but yeah, I didn't realize that there

Katie:

were different names for it, but a few sources call it a curtain.

Katie:

Some sources call it a mushroom, depending on maybe if your hair

Katie:

wasn't straight or the floppy.

Katie:

Again, it's like really short on the sides or shaved

Katie:

and then like Yeah.

Katie:

Hair on

Jared Tockstein:

those names make sense to me.

Jared Tockstein:

I could totally see why.

Katie:

So that was , the men's haircuts.

Katie:

Either that or as we'll get into, there's a few different types of kid

Katie:

or young adult, , in terms of fashion.

Katie:

But there was, so think of like 9 0 210 Beverly Hills, 9 0 2 1 oh

Katie:

was becoming popular at this time.

Katie:

So the hairstyle that Jason Priestley had in that was also a very popular hairstyle.

Katie:

, they called that the flat top.

Katie:

I

Katie:

don't know if I would call it that, but

Katie:

that really high styled,

Jared Tockstein:

Sort of like a pompadour a little bit.

Jared Tockstein:

Um, and th those guys also, uh, the sideburns were really big.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

I remember loving that hair.

Katie:

Him and Dylan.

Katie:

For girls in 91, the hair was, , mal bangs is like the term for it.

Jared Tockstein:

Is that the, where you spray the bangs up like this?

Katie:

Well, I think there's probably various interpretations,

Katie:

give or take a few years from 91.

Katie:

I think that might have been a little bit earlier.

Katie:

I could be wrong, but the descriptors for what a mal bang is when I looked this up,

Katie:

was, is voluminous feathered bangs, like DJ Tanners on Full House, or

Katie:

Kelly Kowski from Saved by the Bell.

Katie:

Picture that, or Kelly Bundy, , from Married with Children.

Katie:

So that's, if you guys can picture what their hair looked like.

Katie:

That bang is called the Mall Bang.

Jared Tockstein:

Oh boy.

Katie:

Also, , headbands, scrunchies.

Katie:

And then there was also this, , the Cindy Crawford messy voluminous blowout.

Katie:

Do you remember that?

Katie:

Pepsi commercial with Cindy Crawford?

Katie:

And that blowout, but like voluminous, but sort of messy at the same time.

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

and then also natural ringlets ala Mariah Carey,

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Katie:

you can kind of picture that.

Katie:

So that was the hair in terms of fashion trends, 91 neon colors, slouch socks,

Katie:

slip dresses for women, bomber jackets and baby doll dresses , for women.

Katie:

Also layering, like wearing a sweatshirt over a turtleneck

Katie:

or, , socks over leggings.

Katie:

, exercise wear as like your outfit.

Katie:

So leotards, leggings, sweatpants, , bike shorts, suits, body suits.

Katie:

I do remember being a thing, actually they're back now.

Katie:

I have several with, jeans.

Katie:

Do you know what I'm talking about when

Katie:

I say a body suit?

Jared Tockstein:

is it like a jumpsuit or is it the, like the fitness body suit.

Katie:

It is.

Katie:

It, the sleeves could be short, it could be a tank, short or long sleeves.

Katie:

And it's very tight.

Katie:

And the reason it's called a bodysuit, there's no pants to

Katie:

it, but , it snaps in the crotch

Katie:

so that you can wear a fitted, tight look without your shirt coming.

Katie:

Un

Katie:

like untucked.

Jared Tockstein:

gotcha.

Jared Tockstein:

I know what you're talking about.

Katie:

Do you guys remember stirrup leggings?

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

With an oversized top Kes.

Katie:

The shoes, the sneakers Kes.

Jared Tockstein:

Just the white, plain white

Katie:

yep.

Katie:

And then there, as I was talking about a couple different looks, there was

Katie:

both at this time the preppy look like Zach from Saved by the Bell.

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

The Jcrew look with boat shoes.

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

penny loafers.

Katie:

This was also the time of, Ralph Lauren

Katie:

and Tommy Hilfiger.

Katie:

So that, do you remember the preppy look?

Katie:

Did you have friends or

Jared Tockstein:

actually, sometimes I occasionally would adopt the preppy look.

Jared Tockstein:

Do you remember Sebago the shoe?

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

Sebago were pretty big.

Jared Tockstein:

This was probably more late eighties,

Jared Tockstein:

maybe 1990.

Jared Tockstein:

You always wore your sebago without socks,

Katie:

Oh,

Jared Tockstein:

were these leather, shoot, I don't, you'll have to look it up.

Jared Tockstein:

It's ridiculous.

Katie:

it like a boat shoe?

Katie:

It's not a boat shoe.

Jared Tockstein:

uh, sorta.

Jared Tockstein:

It's all leather.

Jared Tockstein:

And it's more like a, like a loafer.

Katie:

Okay.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

I would occasionally, you know, I had, of course, I mean

Jared Tockstein:

everybody, you had to have, at least, one or two Ralph Lauren Polo shirts.

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, I still have a couple that I wear to work.

Jared Tockstein:

They're rather timeless, those.

Jared Tockstein:

I would occasionally adopt the preppy look if, I had to get my picture made or go

Jared Tockstein:

to church or something, I would clean up.

Jared Tockstein:

But, uh,

Katie:

Yeah, I can see.

Katie:

I can see it.

Katie:

I also kind of adopted different styles depending on , the occasion

Katie:

I remember, and I still do, j crew.

Katie:

I remember maybe a little bit later, like maybe in the mid nineties.

Katie:

I loved getting the catalog and marking all the things that I wanted.

Katie:

So on the complete opposite end of the preppy spectrum, grunge

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

was a style that was popular in

Katie:

the early nineties.

Katie:

So

Katie:

jeans with flannels, oversized cord jackets, combat boots, doc Martins

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

band t-shirts, to your point,

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

Birkenstocks and Short Alls for girls.

Katie:

Jean overalls, but they were short shorts.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

That was gosh, huge in the nineties.

Jared Tockstein:

But I, I, you know, as a young man, I did fancy those overalls.

Jared Tockstein:

I thought they were cute,

Katie:

It was set of sort of interesting pairing combat boots with a dress

Katie:

or something like that I remember.

Katie:

, basically the Nirvana look, because Nirvana was coming out,

Katie:

And if anybody watched the show on M T V, it didn't last very long.

Katie:

But I loved it around this time.

Katie:

I think it was around this time, , my so-called life with

Katie:

Jared Leto, Claire

Jared Tockstein:

Claire Dames.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

Um, Claire Danes was in it, , and was Jared Leto in that?

Katie:

He, know it sounds weird now, but he was the hottest thing that ever lived

Katie:

for somebody like between the ages of like 10 and 16, probably his character

Katie:

name on the show was Jordan Kano, which

Katie:

is so cool.

Katie:

But yeah, he had the long hair

Katie:

grungy look and he was so good looking.

Katie:

Somebody has to remember this Jared Leto

Katie:

back in the day.

Jared Tockstein:

I do remember that show, but , I remember it mostly for, , Claire.

Katie:

she was the main character and she

Katie:

lusted after Jordan.

Katie:

So that's the grunge look.

Katie:

And then also it's, we're just all over the place with the nineties, early

Katie:

nineties supermodels.

Katie:

Do you remember supermodels being a thing?

Jared Tockstein:

Oh, yes, of course.

Jared Tockstein:

Cindy Crawford and Kathy Ireland and, , Angie Everhart, , who

Jared Tockstein:

was the blonde, the blonde one.

Jared Tockstein:

She did a lot of guess stuff.

Jared Tockstein:

I can't

Katie:

Claudia Schiffer is one I remember I remember really liking her.

Katie:

There was a Versace fashion show in 91 that featured, a few like big

Katie:

names and supermodels this time we have Naomi Campbell was in that show.

Katie:

Linda

Katie:

Evangelista, Christie Turton and Cindy Crawford walking that

Katie:

Versace runway lip syncing to George Michael's freedom because I think

Katie:

that was the music video that he

Katie:

featured supermodels in.

Katie:

Right?

Jared Tockstein:

Yep.

Katie:

We can thank supermodels for all of our bulimia and anorexia in the nineties.

Katie:

. Supermodels man.

Katie:

So we're gonna move on to music

Katie:

next.

Katie:

Did I miss anything fashion wise, TV wise, movie wise from

Katie:

your

Jared Tockstein:

I

Katie:

16 year old days?

Jared Tockstein:

No.

Jared Tockstein:

, he covered quite a bit there.

Katie:

I know music is another thing where people can be a little all over

Katie:

the place what kind of music were into in addition to Beastie Boys?

Jared Tockstein:

Hip hop and rap,

Katie:

Okay.

Katie:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

was pretty much my, I mean, late eighties, into the nineties.

Jared Tockstein:

That's still my favorite kind of music.

Jared Tockstein:

Um,

Katie:

me too.

Jared Tockstein:

I know, I remember you saying this on the Rocky Show and

Jared Tockstein:

I was like, oh, Katie's a hip hop head.

Jared Tockstein:

What, what about it?

Jared Tockstein:

Now of course, I did like some stuff that was on the radio and M t v, you know,

Jared Tockstein:

it's just, it was catchy, but the stuff I was buying in the store was hip hop.

Katie:

That makes sense because it's less likely to be universally

Katie:

popular to be on a top chart.

Katie:

Right.

Katie:

That sort of makes sense.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

And of course back then I was, you know, you, you all, everybody has this

Jared Tockstein:

little rebellious streak and you know, I thought, well, you know, I'm a white

Jared Tockstein:

kid in Tennessee listening to this stuff and, my circle of friends was too,

Jared Tockstein:

but , it was not something that a lot of other people were doing at that time.

Jared Tockstein:

You know, we, we thought, people who listened to the radio and

Jared Tockstein:

liked that stuff were like suckers,

Katie:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Tockstein:

you know?

Jared Tockstein:

Cuz it's like, no, we got this secret music that nobody likes.

Jared Tockstein:

That's, that's much better.

Katie:

It's exclusive.

Katie:

And a little like tougher.

Katie:

Well, so she's not tough at all, but the number one song was, I Don't

Katie:

Wanna Cry by Mariah Carey, and I do remember Mariah Carey becoming

Katie:

such a superstar around this time.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

Mariah Carey I was somewhat familiar with because a lot of girls liked Mariah Carey.

Jared Tockstein:

So you had to find that,

Jared Tockstein:

was gonna, that was gonna get you in.

Jared Tockstein:

So Mariah Carey, I was more familiar with than, maybe some of the other ones.

Katie:

I can see that.

Katie:

Number two is Touch Me All Night Long by Kathy Dennis Extremes more than words,

Katie:

which I remember that being so huge.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Katie:

That's a good one.

Katie:

I like the way the kissing game by High Five.

Katie:

I'm unfamiliar with High Five,

Jared Tockstein:

Don't remember that.

Katie:

they were the number four song this week.

Katie:

Again, it's a particular week

Katie:

in May May 24th, I think this, so that was 32 years ago.

Katie:

Backdraft came out.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Katie:

Basically 32 years

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, w Terry, you say it, it's impossible, but

Katie:

Right?

Katie:

I know,

Jared Tockstein:

it, it's really only probably 12 years,

Jared Tockstein:

but if you say it's 32, I'll

Katie:

I know, I know.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

I'm still 25 in my head, so this week in May in 91, , it's such a good lineup also.

Katie:

Then number five is Rhythm of the Heart by Rod Stewart.

Katie:

Number six, please tell me you remember I touched myself by the de vinyls.

Jared Tockstein:

course, everybody remembers that.

Katie:

Oh my.

Katie:

And I think that's probably the only song they had.

Katie:

Maybe that

Jared Tockstein:

oh, they're definitely one of the one hit.

Jared Tockstein:

wonders.

Jared Tockstein:

I remember that video was also a bit provocative.

Katie:

It was

Katie:

Jared Tockstein:

but yeah, of course, everybody knows that song.

Katie:

such a good song.

Katie:

Here we go.

Katie:

C and C Music Factory.

Katie:

Color me bads.

Katie:

I wanna sex you up.

Katie:

Oh my God.

Katie:

Color me bad.

Katie:

I, that was one of my faves at this time

Katie:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

I see.

Jared Tockstein:

I thought it was, I thought I was a little ahead of the curve on that

Jared Tockstein:

because that song first showed up on the new Jack City soundtrack

Katie:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

and that, that was like six months before it took off.

Jared Tockstein:

Like it was on that soundtrack for a while before anybody paid it any attention.

Jared Tockstein:

And I liked that soundtrack a lot.

Jared Tockstein:

So I was playing that music and then when it took off, I was like, ah, that's pop.

Jared Tockstein:

That sucks.

Jared Tockstein:

But I was like, well, you know, six months ago I liked it, so

Katie:

I remember actually being in high school, many like pro

Katie:

six years later after this.

Katie:

Cruising around in my friend's car, but her radio broke and so we literally

Katie:

had a boombox and I recall having the tape color me bad tape that we

Katie:

were playing in a boombox in her car.

Jared Tockstein:

I.

Jared Tockstein:

I have a term for what that is.

Jared Tockstein:

When you put a boombox in your backseat, I call that sidekick because,

Jared Tockstein:

because my sister had this little pink boombox, it was called a sidekick, and

Katie:

the exact boombox that

Jared Tockstein:

yeah, it was probably about this long and, you know, not very

Jared Tockstein:

big, but she didn't use it anymore.

Jared Tockstein:

And I, I didn't have a, a cassette deck that worked in my piece of

Jared Tockstein:

crap and I would throw it in the backseat and play music on it.

Jared Tockstein:

And my friends called it sidekicking,

Katie:

I

Katie:

like that.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

So the, the boom boombox in the backseat, that's a, apparently a universal

Katie:

did anyone else call it Sidekicking?

Katie:

Let us know.

Katie:

What'd you call this?

Katie:

Did you have a charm?

Katie:

Wore it.

Katie:

Okay, moving on.

Katie:

Number nine is Love is a Wonderful Thing by Michael Bolton.

Katie:

I remember him being big too, but

Katie:

I was not, that was not my jam.

Katie:

Michael Bolton.

Jared Tockstein:

Was it too much?

Jared Tockstein:

Like maybe like your parents or something?

Katie:

maybe I just, I guess I didn't like, , cuz I like a lot of

Katie:

the, like rock groups, slow songs.

Katie:

Just

Katie:

not Michael Bolton.

Jared Tockstein:

I get it.

Katie:

Silent Lucidity is number 10 by Queens.

Katie:

Queens,

Jared Tockstein:

Queens, Reich.

Katie:

okay.

Katie:

I've never heard of them before.

Katie:

Thank you for pronouncing it.

Jared Tockstein:

I have heard of them.

Jared Tockstein:

I am unfamiliar with that song.

Katie:

Let's move on then, because the next five are all pretty

Katie:

good.

Katie:

losing my religion by r e m was number

Katie:

11.

Katie:

That's why I wanted to move past go past 10.

Katie:

That was great.

Katie:

I liked r e m, baby Baby by Amy Grant I think she was actually a Christian artist,

Jared Tockstein:

She was.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah, she was.

Jared Tockstein:

And she

Katie:

song crossed over.

Jared Tockstein:

Pretty

Katie:

for, yeah.

Katie:

I was a big Paula Abdul fan, and she has Rush Rush as number

Katie:

13 this week.

Katie:

Did you like Paula.

Katie:

Abdul?

Jared Tockstein:

Well, oh yeah, I did.

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, in, in a Poppy kind of way.

Jared Tockstein:

And also had the opportunity to work with her sometime later.

Jared Tockstein:

Was

Katie:

my God.

Katie:

I think we need to stop this podcast and just talk about that.

Jared Tockstein:

it was, uh, it was a, she's, she was lovely.

Jared Tockstein:

I remember I was coming off of our show and, I was being introduced to her

Jared Tockstein:

and she's like, oh, this is, uh, this is our, this is our producer Jared.

Jared Tockstein:

She, she sort of grabbed my arms and just went in straight in for the mouth.

Katie:

Was she sober at this time or no?

Katie:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

Maybe, but, I did the quick, you know, of course at this

Jared Tockstein:

time I'm already a happily married man, and so I just, I quickly gave her the

Jared Tockstein:

cheek right before it landed, and I was like, oh, it's great to meet you.

Jared Tockstein:

But it was at, but first I was like, oh, it's cool.

Jared Tockstein:

I'm gonna meet.

Jared Tockstein:

Paula Abdul and you know, I'd go out there and then it's just like, I was

Jared Tockstein:

like, okay, that was interesting,

Katie:

Did she say anything after that to address?

Katie:

You know, or just you guys both

Jared Tockstein:

Oh no, no, she just she just said, Hey, that's,

Jared Tockstein:

it's really nice to meet you.

Jared Tockstein:

Thanks for a great show and this and that.

Katie:

Oh, Paula.

Katie:

Okay.

Katie:

Oh my gosh.

Katie:

That's a fantastic story and I'm sure there's more to it

Katie:

that I'll have to catch up on

Jared Tockstein:

Sure.

Katie:

Um, number 14 is, you don't have to go home tonight by the triplets.

Katie:

15 is Rock Sets Joy Ride, which was an amazing song, I think that was

Katie:

featured in several soundtracks.

Jared Tockstein:

Joy Ride.

Jared Tockstein:

Now, Rockette, I'm familiar with from the Pretty Woman soundtrack,

Jared Tockstein:

I think she was on that, but I don't, I'm not familiar with Joy Ride.

Jared Tockstein:

It doesn't instantly ring a bell.

Katie:

I can't sing, so I'm not going to sing it.

Katie:

Jared Tockstein:

Of course.

Jared Tockstein:

That's

Jared Tockstein:

wow.

Katie:

you were buying tapes or CDs at this time?

Jared Tockstein:

I was buying tapes.

Jared Tockstein:

I didn't get a CD player.

Jared Tockstein:

I was a very late adopter.

Jared Tockstein:

I think I got one in 90, maybe 93.

Jared Tockstein:

So

Katie:

That doesn't seem too late.

Katie:

I feel like tapes went on for quite a while,

Jared Tockstein:

yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

Well, and it was funny cuz I would get to a point where I was using

Jared Tockstein:

tapes in my car and, I didn't have a CD player in my car yet.

Jared Tockstein:

I would buy, , hip hop and rap I would buy on tape.

Jared Tockstein:

But I was also a huge film score nut.

Jared Tockstein:

I love movie soundtracks, and I would purchase those on CD because I would

Jared Tockstein:

play those on my stereo in my house.

Jared Tockstein:

I wouldn't necessarily play those as I'm driving around.

Jared Tockstein:

So rap was tape, film scores were CDs,

Katie:

I

Jared Tockstein:

then I

Jared Tockstein:

eventually switched over.

Katie:

Yes.

Katie:

What kind of a car were you?

Katie:

So you're 16 at this time.

Katie:

Like, listen to the Beastie Boys in your car, driving around

Jared Tockstein:

yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

With my pink boombox.

Jared Tockstein:

I drove a 1985 Dodge Colt Hatchback four speed.

Jared Tockstein:

It was beat up on the front end, but it was a car that my

Jared Tockstein:

parents had just given to me.

Jared Tockstein:

So you cannot, as a 16 year old kid, you cannot say no to that.

Katie:

It's, it's almost like,

Katie:

a rite of passage back in.

Katie:

your day and even still my, like you're a little bit older than I am,

Katie:

but yeah, nobody had like a nice car.

Jared Tockstein:

No, nobody's, getting a brand new, land Rover

Jared Tockstein:

when they're 16 years old.

Katie:

Not in my zip code.

Jared Tockstein:

oh,

Jared Tockstein:

there are kids today who are getting that, but that was not my world

Jared Tockstein:

for

Katie:

Same.

Katie:

Same.

Katie:

Okay.

Katie:

So moving, there's one more segment before we get into back draft

Katie:

to just make sure everybody's in this world of 1991 with us,

Katie:

with news and events.

Katie:

The space shuttle Discovery, 12 lands hot gas of the day was the, , Oakland Days.

Katie:

Jose Conseco is seen leaving Singer Madonna's apartment.

Katie:

Just that in and of itself was such hot goss,

Jared Tockstein:

I do remember that.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah, that was like on the news,

Katie:

Like, not

Katie:

like a scandalous that, that's just crazy.

Katie:

What an innocent time.

Jared Tockstein:

Oh man, that was crazy.

Jared Tockstein:

It was.

Jared Tockstein:

That was something that was sort of everywhere.

Jared Tockstein:

Like, hey, Jose Conseco is, is he Madonna's new boyfriend?

Jared Tockstein:

We were interested in a lot of weird crap.

Katie:

She had a lot of famous boyfriends, basically

Katie:

everyone.

Jared Tockstein:

And this was around the time where she was

Jared Tockstein:

really being provocative with , her whole sex book and everything.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah, Madonna back then, she was really, upsetting a lot of people

Jared Tockstein:

and putting herself out there.

Jared Tockstein:

I do remember that about the early nineties for sure.

Jared Tockstein:

I remember going into Walden books and you would see the.

Jared Tockstein:

The book, you know,

Katie:

Oh, wow.

Jared Tockstein:

it was back behind the counter and it was all sealed up,

Jared Tockstein:

and it was just like, the embarrassment of buying a Playboy or something, but

Jared Tockstein:

you're spending like $80 on this book.

Jared Tockstein:

But, I did not buy that book, by the way, just to put that out there.

Katie:

I actually wouldn't mind reading it.

Katie:

Now I do really like Madonna.

Katie:

I mean, most people do, she's iconic.

Katie:

, but I at this time, . I'm like 10 ish, and I remember that being a, , a big scan.

Katie:

Okay.

Katie:

We didn't have the internet,

Katie:

so it was, you hear things this way or that way, and I remember

Katie:

that being a big scandalous thing.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

It was a much more mysterious world in the early nineties,

Jared Tockstein:

internet.

Katie:

We did not have an Apple computer, but they released their

Katie:

Macintosh system seven in 1991.

Katie:

So maybe our school had it remember there being a computer lab

Jared Tockstein:

Yo.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Katie:

you know?

Jared Tockstein:

I certainly do.

Jared Tockstein:

And we did use a little Apple two E's when I was in high school.

Jared Tockstein:

The, just the little weird looking, apple computers with the

Jared Tockstein:

integrated monitor and everything.

Katie:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, I thought I was living in the future at that

Katie:

you were, you were, and now it's a relic.

Katie:

I love it when I see a movie with it and it was like such high tech stuff at the

Jared Tockstein:

Oh yeah.

Katie:

Edith Creson, who I had not heard of, because apparently

Katie:

I'm not very worldly, , she became Francis first female.

Katie:

Premiere 91.

Jared Tockstein:

I just learned something new today

Jared Tockstein:

because I had not heard that.

Katie:

And then coming back to America, the Chicago Bull,

Katie:

Michael Jordan is named NBA's.

Katie:

M V P.

Jared Tockstein:

Oh yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

Michael Jordan was everywhere in the early nineties and the late eighties.

Jared Tockstein:

He was, uh, amazing.

Katie:

I remember him more mid nineties, I guess.

Katie:

I don't realize that he started

Jared Tockstein:

Oh, yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

He started, , late eighties.

Jared Tockstein:

That's when the, that's when the Jordan, , sneakers really took off

Katie:

Oh, that's right.

Jared Tockstein:

yeah, they just made a movie

Katie:

a movie about yeah.

Katie:

Did you see it?

Katie:

I haven't seen it

Jared Tockstein:

it's, on Prime.

Jared Tockstein:

I think I wanna watch that now.

Katie:

it's on Prime already, like we

Jared Tockstein:

And I, I think like two weeks ago it was in the theaters, so,

Katie:

yeah.

Katie:

Okay.

Katie:

Well, I'm gonna watch that.

Katie:

The Soviet Parliament approves a law allowing citizens to travel abroad.

Katie:

That was like two-ish years post the end of the Cold War.

Katie:

So it took that long.

Katie:

Right.

Jared Tockstein:

Katie, Katie, we know the Cold War ended when, in

Katie:

Rocky, I know

Jared Tockstein:

when Rocky Balboa defeated Ivan Drago but I guess it

Jared Tockstein:

just takes, the big machine a, a while to catch up but that does seem, uh,

Jared Tockstein:

like, yeah.

Katie:

They're finally allowing their citizens

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

So it, it's not something that just happened instantaneously.

Katie:

That kind of surprised me.

Katie:

A lot of sad things on here.

Katie:

Actually.

Katie:

223 people die when an Austrian, Boeing 7 67 explodes in Bangkok.

Katie:

Big old plane crash.

Katie:

Robert Duvall marries Sharon Broy.

Katie:

I don't know who that is, but Robert Duvall got married

Katie:

in May of 91.

Katie:

Bing, Crosby's son Dennis commits suicide.

Katie:

He was 54.

Katie:

I know.

Jared Tockstein:

I heard being was a tough, , father.

Katie:

Really?

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah, he was.

Jared Tockstein:

That's, I would just say if you want to know more, Google it because

Jared Tockstein:

he was, , I mean I don't want to ruin your Christmas albums or

Jared Tockstein:

anything, but, he was a bad drunk.

Katie:

Ooh.

Katie:

Oh, that is sad.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah, I try not to think about it cuz I like his Christmas

Jared Tockstein:

album so much and since I'm a shallow, bad person, I would rather listen to

Jared Tockstein:

white Christmas than think about what he

Katie:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

doing to his family.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

You're so terrible.

Katie:

And then the last bit of news from May of 91 that I thought people might

Katie:

find interesting is that , the prime minister of India was assassinated.

Katie:

I don't remember hearing about that, but assassinations are pretty

Katie:

few and far between, aren't they?

Jared Tockstein:

I would think so.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

Especially if like heads of state like that.

Katie:

Is there anything else that you remember from this time?

Jared Tockstein:

Now I've gotta take it back to music because one of my

Jared Tockstein:

favorite albums of this year, and you may have heard this song cuz it

Jared Tockstein:

was one of their most famous songs.

Jared Tockstein:

Do you remember the rap group?

Jared Tockstein:

Third base?

Katie:

No third base,

Jared Tockstein:

Oh.

Jared Tockstein:

They had a song where they were dissing Vanilla Ice called Pop Goes the Weasel.

Katie:

Oh, I, I guarantee I've heard that song, but just, I didn't recall the group.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Katie:

Vanilla Ice was a thing.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

And these guys, uh, third base were also white rappers who came out and

Jared Tockstein:

made this whole video of them like beating up a vanilla ice lookalike.

Jared Tockstein:

And the song was called Pop Goes the Weasel.

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, and it was, they sampled, , the song Sludge Hammerer from Peter Gabriel.

Jared Tockstein:

It was, and it's ironic that this song, they were making fun of pop and this

Jared Tockstein:

song is their only song that actually charted in the top 10 that year.

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, so

Katie:

enough to get in the top 10.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

That's funny.

Jared Tockstein:

That's one of my big musical memories.

Katie:

that's funny.

Katie:

I think I know what you're talking about.

Katie:

I don't know what year it was.

Katie:

, Suge Knight talking about, , rap.

Katie:

Didn't he almost kill Nell Ice or was that a blown up story?

Jared Tockstein:

I don't know.

Jared Tockstein:

I think I've heard Vanilla

Katie:

him over a balcony or

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

That was the mid nineties or something.

Jared Tockstein:

When,

Jared Tockstein:

he started getting in with, , Dr.

Jared Tockstein:

Dre and all those guys and, but yeah, Vanilla Ice , is interesting, cuz

Jared Tockstein:

when he first came out, , liking hip hop, being a white kid, I was like,

Jared Tockstein:

man, , and you know, ice, ice Baby.

Jared Tockstein:

I was like, oh man, this is pretty good.

Jared Tockstein:

But then it's one of those things where like af flips was switched

Jared Tockstein:

and it was, nobody liked him.

Jared Tockstein:

He was a huge joke.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

Same with, uh, milli Vanilli.

Katie:

When it became known that they were lip syncing and now everybody lip

Katie:

syncs when they're performing it seems

Katie:

But there was this idea of a manufactured.

Katie:

Celebrity that we didn't appreciate back in the day.

Katie:

I feel like that's maybe what happened.

Katie:

Vanilla Ice was a little too manufactured when I

Katie:

was 10.

Katie:

I thought he was super cool.

Katie:

His hair and everything.

Jared Tockstein:

Well, it's funny, when my daughter was growing up, she started

Jared Tockstein:

to, because Ice, ice Baby is a catchy song

Jared Tockstein:

and I can, I've memorized it, I can wrap it in like two seconds.

Jared Tockstein:

Alright.

Jared Tockstein:

Stop, collaborate, and listen.

Jared Tockstein:

I suspect with my brand new invention, something grab a hold of

Jared Tockstein:

me tightly flow like a heartbeat.

Jared Tockstein:

Daily and nightly.

Jared Tockstein:

Will it ever stop?

Jared Tockstein:

Yo, I don't know.

Jared Tockstein:

Turn out the lights and I'll flow to the extreme.

Jared Tockstein:

I'll rock a mic like a van.

Jared Tockstein:

Loto bikes will chop up like a candle dance.

Jared Tockstein:

Okay, I'm, that's

Katie:

That,

Jared Tockstein:

I don't want get you, I don't wanna give you

Jared Tockstein:

a copyright strike or anything.

Jared Tockstein:

So,

Katie:

No, I'm a big Tupac fan and so when I'm in my car

Katie:

alone, I like how ridiculous.

Katie:

Me, I don't know for viewers, I don't look like the type that is

Katie:

wrapping to Tupac songs, but he's my ultimate and I love him, so

Jared Tockstein:

I totally get it.

Jared Tockstein:

I am the same way.

Jared Tockstein:

I got you.

Jared Tockstein:

So, uh, vanilla ice, now , I guess he's renovates homes now or something.

Katie:

Yes.

Katie:

I think you're right.

Katie:

He had a resurgence.

Katie:

Oh my gosh.

Katie:

What was that show?

Katie:

Actually, I can bring almost anything around to a Iraqi reference.

Katie:

There was a show on VH1 that I recall liking back in the day,

Katie:

in the early days of reality.

Katie:

Television.

Katie:

It was called The Surreal Life.

Katie:

And it had sort of like, has been celebrities that

Katie:

lived in a house together.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Katie:

Vanilla Ice was one of them.

Katie:

It was one

Katie:

of the early seasons, maybe the first season.

Katie:

And then Flava fla,

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

And

Katie:

know if they were on the same season.

Katie:

And Nielsen, that's the, I can

Jared Tockstein:

Because they hooked.

Jared Tockstein:

They hooked up.

Jared Tockstein:

She hooked up with,

Jared Tockstein:

yeah, she hooked up with Flavor fla.

Katie:

Yep.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

I don't know if they were all in the same season, but I remember Vanilla

Katie:

Ice being on that show as with Brae,

Katie:

an ex-wife of Sylva Stall Sloan

Katie:

and, uh, Flava Fla.

Jared Tockstein:

Which he got his own spinoff Flavor of Love,

Jared Tockstein:

which was completely ridiculous.

Katie:

And then there was a spinoff of that because

Katie:

there was a character,

Jared Tockstein:

oh.

Jared Tockstein:

There was one of the, one of the

Katie:

New York, one of the women in that.

Katie:

Train wreck that we all wanted to

Jared Tockstein:

Complete train wreck.

Katie:

Yep.

Katie:

Okay.

Katie:

Patrick Swayze and Kurt Russell?

Katie:

They're my two ultimate everyman for season one.

Katie:

I have to ask

Katie:

everyone, do you think that they resemble each other at all?

Jared Tockstein:

not really.

Katie:

No.

Katie:

Okay.

Katie:

You're with Ryan on this.

Katie:

I very much think they look alike, but Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, I mean, if they were as brothers, it wouldn't raise

Jared Tockstein:

any flags for me, but I don't think they really resemble each other.

Katie:

Okay.

Katie:

All right.

Katie:

I'm trying to get more people on my side.

Katie:

Somebody, please.

Jared Tockstein:

Sorry, Katie.

Katie:

okay.

Katie:

It's all right.

Katie:

, Now regarding Kurt Russell, who's the star of Backdraft,

Katie:

did you look up to him?

Katie:

What are your thoughts about Kurt Russell?

Katie:

Do You have a fandom with him?

Jared Tockstein:

oddly enough, before Backdraft, I did not, I, of course

Jared Tockstein:

I saw him in, uh, big trouble.

Jared Tockstein:

And, as a kid in my house, I really wasn't allowed to watch r rated movies.

Jared Tockstein:

So I had not seen the thing at that time.

Jared Tockstein:

My exposure to Kurt Russell was when he was doing the

Jared Tockstein:

live action Walt Disney stuff.

Jared Tockstein:

Um, so when I was growing up, I would see him, you know, like the

Jared Tockstein:

computer who wore tennis shoes, and he, he did a lot of those sort of

Jared Tockstein:

chinsy live action Disney films and.

Jared Tockstein:

One of the things that fascinates me about Kurt Russell to, to this day

Jared Tockstein:

is that, like me, myself, I'm very interested in Walt Disney as a person.

Jared Tockstein:

And, I've read many books about him and, I'm fascinated in the history of

Jared Tockstein:

the theme parks and that kind of stuff.

Jared Tockstein:

And Walt Disney and one of his last appearances on camera before he died,

Jared Tockstein:

he said, this new film I'm making stars, a young man named Kurt Russell, who is

Jared Tockstein:

gonna have a very long and storied career.

Jared Tockstein:

And Walt said that about Kurt, uh, just like weeks before he died.

Jared Tockstein:

And it's kind of neat.

Jared Tockstein:

And that clip of Walt talking about Kurt, it's on YouTube and

Jared Tockstein:

it's, a fascinating, , watch.

Jared Tockstein:

And

Jared Tockstein:

you also hear that Kurt Russell.

Jared Tockstein:

In interviews he's done, as recently as when he did Guardians of the Galaxy.

Jared Tockstein:

He talks about, uh, his fondness for Walt and how Walt

Jared Tockstein:

treated him, like, like a son.

Jared Tockstein:

And he still calls him.

Jared Tockstein:

He won't call him Walt, he calls him Mr.

Jared Tockstein:

Disney, like, even to this day.

Jared Tockstein:

So it's that kind of thing endears me to Kurt.

Jared Tockstein:

But as far as my exposure to Kurt as a kid was those Disney movies.

Jared Tockstein:

I did see him in like, like I said, big trouble.

Jared Tockstein:

I, I didn't watch him in the thing.

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, I knew who he was and he had been in some comedies

Jared Tockstein:

too that I think I had seen.

Jared Tockstein:

But, when I saw him in Backdraft, I will say Backdraft is probably the first movie

Jared Tockstein:

Kurt Russell movie I saw in a theater.

Katie:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

When I saw it at the Dollar movies and I saw it twice

Jared Tockstein:

because, , and when I say this, this reminds me of a specific time

Jared Tockstein:

in my life, at the dollar movies.

Jared Tockstein:

I didn't see Backdraft about September of that year, , because I didn't

Jared Tockstein:

see it in the first run theaters.

Jared Tockstein:

And as a 16 year old kid, for me, there was no bigger expression of freedom than

Jared Tockstein:

going to the movies on a school night

Katie:

Ooh.

Jared Tockstein:

and driving myself to the movies, honest, like if I

Jared Tockstein:

didn't have any homework and, I had some money in my pocket.

Jared Tockstein:

That's why the dollar movies were perfect.

Jared Tockstein:

I didn't have, I didn't have a real job.

Jared Tockstein:

I was mowing yards and stuff, but it was cheap.

Jared Tockstein:

It wasn't that far from my house, and if I didn't have any homework, I could

Jared Tockstein:

go see a movie on a school night.

Jared Tockstein:

And that's why the dollar movies were so important to me at that time in my life.

Jared Tockstein:

And I think I saw Backdraft like two or three times at the Dollar movie.

Jared Tockstein:

So, yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

So that's why when you initially suggested this, I was like, backdraft

Jared Tockstein:

to me represents a very specific point in my life, a specific memory for me.

Jared Tockstein:

And it was fun to revisit.

Katie:

Did you get those fond feelings when you re-watched it

Katie:

Did it take you back to those times?

Jared Tockstein:

Now, I hadn't watched back draft, um, probably, I mean,

Jared Tockstein:

I had it on VHS but it's probably been 25 years since I had watched

Jared Tockstein:

it before watching it for this show.

Katie:

same.

Jared Tockstein:

But there were things during the movie that certain

Jared Tockstein:

lines I would, that would, I would remember, , certain things that, that

Jared Tockstein:

did that I, that did stick in my brain.

Jared Tockstein:

Han Zimmer's score is, it's one of his early masterpieces.

Jared Tockstein:

It was also used for years on Iron Chef

Jared Tockstein:

that the show.

Jared Tockstein:

And that kind of ruined it for me because I started associating it with

Jared Tockstein:

the Iron Chef.

Jared Tockstein:

But, you know, revisiting it in this film after so many

Jared Tockstein:

years, it's really a great score.

Jared Tockstein:

, the soundtrack is very memorable.

Katie:

you

Katie:

put Han Zimmer on it and it's gonna be golden.

Katie:

I think

Katie:

I am a big fan.

Jared Tockstein:

And this was the fir and I like Han Zimmer, to this day.

Jared Tockstein:

But this, I think Backdraft was the first time I ever kind of stood up and

Jared Tockstein:

took notice of, well, who did the music

Katie:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Tockstein:

Han Zimmer doesn't ring a bell, , of course he would go on to

Jared Tockstein:

do many, many other famous projects and very talented, very talented person.

Katie:

Agreed.

Katie:

I like your stories about Kurt from his earlier work.

Katie:

That's awesome.

Katie:

Do you have any specific thoughts about Patrick Swayze or favorite roles of his?

Jared Tockstein:

For me, Patrick Swayze, , I guess my favorites roles

Jared Tockstein:

of his are point, break and ghost.

Katie:

Oh, really?

Katie:

Okay.

Katie:

That's,

Jared Tockstein:

ghost.

Jared Tockstein:

The ladies loved ghost.

Katie:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

So you were like, yeah, sure.

Katie:

I'll go to that

Katie:

movie with you

Jared Tockstein:

it's, it's a movie that it's kind of scary and so they,

Jared Tockstein:

they want to grab your arm or hold your hand and it's also very emotional

Jared Tockstein:

at the end, so they're crying.

Jared Tockstein:

So it's a perfect time to put your arm and comfort him.

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, so yeah, ghost

Katie:

I got you

Jared Tockstein:

ghost was my friend.

Katie:

That's awesome.

Katie:

I love it.

Katie:

Okay, Okay, well, we're finally gonna get into Backdraft,

Jared Tockstein:

Here we go.

Jared Tockstein:

Are you still with us?

Jared Tockstein:

I

Jared Tockstein:

hope

Katie:

I know.

Katie:

It's usually about half and half,

Jared Tockstein:

the setup.

Jared Tockstein:

I love that.

Jared Tockstein:

I, I, that was so fun.

Katie:

I like anything that makes me feel younger,

Katie:

The times of your.

Katie:

So Backdraft was released on May 24th, 1994, and it was rated R It was

Katie:

really long, actually for the time.

Katie:

It was two hours and 17 minutes.

Katie:

The I M D B rating is only a 6.7.

Katie:

I mean, that's pretty good, but I guess for some reason I

Katie:

thought it would've been higher.

Katie:

Because the director is the famous Ron Howard Academy Award-winning filmmaker,

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

Oh, Ron, Ronnie Howard,

Katie:

The writers are Gregory Widen, who is also known for the

Katie:

Prophecy Highlander, both backdrops.

Katie:

Yes.

Katie:

There was a 2019 sequel.

Katie:

I think it might have been straight to video.

Katie:

And

Jared Tockstein:

I've watched.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

Did you really?

Katie:

I didn't.

Katie:

Would you recommend it?

Katie:

That's a no.

Katie:

Yeah, that's That's a no.

Katie:

Gregory also, did an episode of Tales from the Crypt TV series.

Katie:

Do you remember that?

Katie:

TV

Jared Tockstein:

Oh yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

I remember Tales from the Crypt.

Katie:

As we already talked about, Han Zimmer did the score for this.

Katie:

Now this is a star studded cast, so , if you haven't seen Backdraft

Katie:

in a while, revisit it and you'll be pleased because we have Kurt Russell

Katie:

as Steven McCaffrey, one of the two brothers, and then William Baldwin, a

Katie:

k a Billy Baldwin as Brian, the younger brother, who in my opinion, is by far

Katie:

the best looking Baldwin brother Billy.

Katie:

William Billy.

Katie:

Anybody else with me on that?

Jared Tockstein:

He's a handsome man.

Katie:

He's very handsome.

Katie:

And then we have one of my favorites, Robert De Niro.

Katie:

He's tied for me, , with my other number one.

Katie:

He plays Donald Rim, Gale, , the investigator Donald Sutherland,

Katie:

who's great in everything he does.

Katie:

He's hardly in this movie, but he's one of the top build.

Katie:

, and he plays, the prisoner name is Ronald, so

Katie:

Donald is playing Ronald.

Katie:

And then we have a separate Donald in the movie.

Katie:

It's kind of confusing.

Katie:

, Jennifer, Jason Lee, she plays Jennifer who works for the Politician Swayze

Katie:

and the love interest of Brian Scott.

Katie:

Glenn as John a K a X.

Katie:

He's referred to as Ax a lot in the movie.

Katie:

Rebecca Des Monet plays the ex-wife, or soon-to-be ex-wife of Steven.

Katie:

Uh, Jason Kedrick, who's very young in this.

Katie:

He plays one of the other probationary, recruits he's also a recent grad of

Katie:

the Academy, and his name is Tim.

Katie:

In the movie, j t Walsh plays the politician, , the Alderman or Mayor,

Katie:

oral candidate, uh, Martin s Suza.

Katie:

Tony maus, senior as the Chief, and Jack McGee as Schmidt.

Katie:

He is in this movie, the heavyset guy

Katie:

that drives the truck, and he's the Waterman or the Hoseman.

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

He's an awesome character actor.

Katie:

, he was the sheriff in Basic Instinct if you

Jared Tockstein:

Oh, yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Katie:

And then he played George Ward in the Fighter.

Katie:

He's got a really extensive career.

Katie:

So you guys will probably, , recognize Jack McGee in this movie as well.

Katie:

The description of Backdraft is as a child, Brian McCafferty

Katie:

watched his firefighter father die.

Katie:

Years later, he joins his brother Steven in the force by becoming

Katie:

a rookie Chicago firefighter.

Katie:

There's a history of conflict between the two brothers that

Katie:

heats up when working together.

Katie:

A series of suspicious controlled fires are set, each made to kill a

Katie:

specific person, and then after becoming frightened in a fire, Brian moves into the

Katie:

department's Arson investigation office.

Katie:

He ends up getting a lesson on what it means to be a fireman.

Katie:

It

Jared Tockstein:

He

Katie:

actually had some awards, , three Oscars,

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

Best effects, sound effects, editing and best effects in the

Katie:

video effects and best sound.

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

, Katie:

also like ome for the visual effects I'm very glad that the

, Katie:

effects are real and we'll, we'll kind of talk about the effects.

, Katie:

It's not c g i fire and I think that's why they're so good.

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Katie:

Han Zimmer did win, uh, b m I film music win for him.

Katie:

So Han Zimmer's to your point about him being great.

Katie:

So M t v movie awards, I don't know when that ended, but I remember

Katie:

always liking to watch the M t

Jared Tockstein:

I think they, they're still going on.

Katie:

Oh, are they?

Katie:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

they?

Jared Tockstein:

still do 'em.

Katie:

Well, back in the day, it, they were kind of a bigger deal and

Katie:

so there was a nomination for both Best movie and best

Katie:

action sequence for back draft.

Jared Tockstein:

Nice.

Katie:

it was a blockbuster in that it grossed 152.4

Katie:

million on a 40 million budget.

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

Definitely made 'em a profit.

Katie:

Yes, just a little bit.

Katie:

I'm actually kind of surprised that the budget was not more

Katie:

just given all of the effects and the star studded cast, . So what

Katie:

are your overall impressions?

Katie:

Rewatching the movie

Jared Tockstein:

The things I enjoyed about it were, Kurt Russell is, you

Jared Tockstein:

know, he's got charisma to spare and he's really, he's good in this movie.

Jared Tockstein:

, Billy Baldwin is, he's okay.

Jared Tockstein:

For me, I think my, my favorite part of the movie after rewatching

Jared Tockstein:

it is, is Robert De Niro.

Jared Tockstein:

I think this is peak 1990s, Robert De Niro.

Jared Tockstein:

This is after, , Goodfellas and Cape Fear and before Casino, but.

Jared Tockstein:

He, um, you know, these days he's maybe is a bit into self parody, but back

Jared Tockstein:

then, I guess he was in his late forties.

Jared Tockstein:

He was really, he, he just, he elevates the, he brings a realism to

Jared Tockstein:

it that maybe in other parts of the film, , especially some of the stuff

Jared Tockstein:

with Baldwin, , it feels, it felt to me a little I dunno, actory like fake,

Katie:

Agreed.

Jared Tockstein:

But when Robert De Niro , is talking about.

Jared Tockstein:

You know, it's just the little things that he does.

Jared Tockstein:

, he's always, , he's smoking or he's doing business with his hands and the way he

Jared Tockstein:

talks to people, it, it feels very, it doesn't feel like he's reading a script.

Jared Tockstein:

It feels very natural and I buy that he is a real person, , in this role.

Jared Tockstein:

That's really kind of what I focused in on, on my rewatch was like, I, I, I'd

Jared Tockstein:

remembered that De Niro was in this, but I was surprised by how good he was in this.

Jared Tockstein:

And he is not in it a ton,

Jared Tockstein:

but when he is, he's just, he's fascinating to watch, I think.

Katie:

I agree with you.

Katie:

That he elevates anything he's in and that's, that's his brilliance.

Katie:

That's the brilliance of a, an actor of his caliber is that it makes it feel real.

Katie:

We get a fantastic, he's kind of famous for some of his yelling scenes.

Katie:

Uh, Robert 10 Niro Yell, and we get one of those in this movie also.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes, he does.

Jared Tockstein:

He does break out his yell.

Jared Tockstein:

I can't remember specific.

Jared Tockstein:

I think he's yelling at the Baldwin, isn't he?

Katie:

It's someone else, it's not Baldwin, but Baldwin overhears him.

Jared Tockstein:

That's right.

Jared Tockstein:

, I loved De Niro.

Jared Tockstein:

Now I gotta say Donald Sutherland.

Jared Tockstein:

I thought, and , this could almost be a trope of the time.

Jared Tockstein:

Remember we are just about a year or so out from Silence of the Lambs,

Katie:

Oh,

Katie:

maniacal,

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah, he's the evil mastermind who's locked away, and I

Jared Tockstein:

thought, on the rewatch, I thought his initial scene with De Niro was

Jared Tockstein:

a bit, maybe comic book villain,

Katie:

Mm

Jared Tockstein:

like just sort of the way he was.

Jared Tockstein:

He's like, he's got these ticks and he's always, you know, shaking.

Jared Tockstein:

And, he was like, oh, hey, it's my shadow.

Jared Tockstein:

It's my shadow at the, and I think he's better in the second scene

Jared Tockstein:

With William Baldwin.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

When they're just, they're at the table and he's a little more subdued

Jared Tockstein:

and he's playing it a little more, I don't know, sinister or realistic.

Jared Tockstein:

And, so th that's sort of my thoughts on.

Jared Tockstein:

It seems to me, I don't know if it was a trope of cinema of that time, but once

Jared Tockstein:

Handleable Lecter came out, everybody wanted to have their version of that.

Katie:

I think that's a good point that you bring up.

Katie:

I enjoyed it because it was our introduction to his character.

Katie:

I didn't mind it being overdone, but now that you point like it is

Katie:

similar to the Silence of the Lambs,

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

And it, it, it's hard for me to believe that wasn't an influence

Katie:

it's a good point.

Jared Tockstein:

on that scene.

Jared Tockstein:

So Jennifer, Jason Lee, there's something I picked up while watching this movie,

Jared Tockstein:

and it's something that bothered me back in the day, but it's only now

Jared Tockstein:

that I realized why it bothered me.

Jared Tockstein:

Almost all of Jennifer, Jason Lee's lines are dubbed, it's.

Jared Tockstein:

It's done with ADR in

Katie:

I didn't notice that.

Katie:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

And, and I always thought as a younger person watching this, she

Jared Tockstein:

sounded like she was reading a lot.

Jared Tockstein:

Like, what are you doing, Brian?

Jared Tockstein:

Why?

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, and I was like, why does she sound like that?

Jared Tockstein:

But listening to it with my old ears, these days, I was like, holy cow,

Jared Tockstein:

all this dialogue is very clean.

Jared Tockstein:

It was not recorded on the set.

Jared Tockstein:

And she was standing in a sound booth reading these lines off of a script and.

Katie:

I wonder why.

Jared Tockstein:

I don't, I

Katie:

you have any?

Jared Tockstein:

I think because a lot of her scenes, they're outside

Jared Tockstein:

and it's very difficult, to capture production audio, in an

Jared Tockstein:

environment where there's so much stuff going on, especially if you've

Jared Tockstein:

got big trucks, , all around you.

Jared Tockstein:

I don't know if she's just not because there's a d r throughout the movie and

Jared Tockstein:

it didn't bother me , with Baldwin or Kurt Russell, but I think some

Jared Tockstein:

people are better at it than others.

Jared Tockstein:

I imagine it's hard to create a performance if you're standing

Jared Tockstein:

in a sound booth just with a mic, like trying to match what you

Jared Tockstein:

are saying on the movie screen.

Katie:

recreate the scene.

Katie:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

And I think that's something that Kurt Russell is very good at.

Jared Tockstein:

William Baldwin seems to be very good at it, but maybe some people aren't,

Jared Tockstein:

just aren't very comfortable doing that.

Jared Tockstein:

And that, I think that comes across to me in, , some of her line delivery.

Jared Tockstein:

But , then again, I'm almost a hundred percent sure l most

Jared Tockstein:

of her dialogue was dubbed.

Jared Tockstein:

Of course, there could be someone out there that knows better than

Jared Tockstein:

me, and I could be totally wrong,

Katie:

Well, , I think that tracks probably, I didn't really note that

Katie:

much about her other than this seems like a departure from her typical role,

Katie:

She's more usually known for dramas and really broody

Katie:

things where an action movie is different.

Katie:

I guess

Katie:

Her role is different than her typical in this movie.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes,

Katie:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

How about you?

Katie:

Well, I was, so, I didn't really remember a lot from it other than,

Katie:

the first time that we're introduced to Steven, it's that famous scene.

Katie:

He emerges from the shadows of the fiery building, rescuing the person.

Katie:

And that's Steven that tells us everything we need to know about him.

Katie:

But the opening scene, I really enjoyed the opening scene, which is set in 1971.

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

So we see how the father dies

Katie:

and the

Jared Tockstein:

Also played by Kurt.

Katie:

Played by Kurt and I literally wrote down, damn, he's hot.

Katie:

He was so hot.

Katie:

The way that they have him played is the father.

Katie:

He is got like a seventies mustache, but

Katie:

like not in a gross way.

Katie:

And like

Jared Tockstein:

He also.

Jared Tockstein:

I think he lays on the, the Chicago a little more thick.

Jared Tockstein:

Hey, uh, how you doing down there, Brian?

Jared Tockstein:

Come on, Brian, let's go do this.

Katie:

I love it.

Katie:

Chicago is my favorite American city.

Katie:

So

Katie:

anything set in Chicago, I'm a big fan of.

Katie:

I, yeah,

Katie:

and all, it's everybody, all their names, they're all very Irish

Katie:

like this, this whole crew.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Katie:

but yeah, so we see him, I'm like, God, who Kurt looks so good in this movie.

Katie:

And then later, so he is playing the dad and unfortunately Brian

Katie:

goes on a call with his dad as an seven, eight year old and witnesses

Katie:

father Die in an explosion in 1971, and then it cuts to 20 years later.

Katie:

And that's the rest of the movie.

Katie:

Kurt in both roles as the father and as Steven is smoking

Katie:

in this movie, so l I know,

Katie:

I'm so,

Jared Tockstein:

a,

Jared Tockstein:

he is a

Katie:

deep.

Jared Tockstein:

man.

Katie:

he

Katie:

looks really good.

Jared Tockstein:

I also love, I, I liked it back when I first

Jared Tockstein:

saw it, and I like it now.

Jared Tockstein:

The way he swears the way he drops f bombs , and just

Jared Tockstein:

the way he uses profanity.

Jared Tockstein:

, it's hard to explain, but stay right back inside me, Brian.

Katie:

I wrote that down in my notes as well, because I took note.

Katie:

I thought it was a bravo moment

Katie:

for Kurt the way, , so he's trying to protect his little brother.

Katie:

He, right.

Katie:

Like he feels this fatherly nature about him.

Katie:

And so he's trying to keep his little brother close because I think he

Katie:

realizes that his brother's not this, he's not really cut out for this

Jared Tockstein:

he he does see his brothers a bit of an F up.

Katie:

Yes.

Katie:

I mean, and he's had many failed careers and the brother tries to get on a

Katie:

different engine, a different station.

Katie:

But then Steven, the older brother, obviously, he's like, no, I need him

Katie:

close to me to watch out for him.

Katie:

So they end up being in the same station, their first call that they go on.

Katie:

Brian doesn't listen to Steven.

Katie:

And afterwards he says, in the best, it's one of the best yell scenes ever.

Katie:

I think he, he says, I told you to stay right The fuck beside me.

Katie:

But the way he delivers it is perfection.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

I really enjoyed that, that, scene.

Katie:

because he is legitimately scared for his brother, like he doesn't want him to die.

Jared Tockstein:

that's true.

Jared Tockstein:

And he does a great job of, of playing up.

Jared Tockstein:

His, because he's kind of annoyed by his little brother, but also he does have

Jared Tockstein:

that brotherly instinct that kicks in but he's not afraid to tell him, Hey, you

Jared Tockstein:

know, you're not cut out for this, you know, go back to, you know, whatever.

Jared Tockstein:

Because he makes a joke about it in the movie.

Jared Tockstein:

He's like, well, what are we doing this week, Brian?

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, what, what career did you pick?

Jared Tockstein:

But then, of course we see Steven has his own demons.

Jared Tockstein:

He's not a perfect guy

Jared Tockstein:

despite the fact that he's, and I tell you, one of my favorite scenes

Jared Tockstein:

in this movie with Kurt Russell, it's has nothing to do with firefighting.

Jared Tockstein:

It's a scene I believed was almost entirely improvd.

Jared Tockstein:

And it's when he's with his, , the actor who plays his son and they're

Jared Tockstein:

making a.

Jared Tockstein:

Breakfast.

Jared Tockstein:

There's something about that scene I think that, that Ron Howard just

Jared Tockstein:

set up the camera and said, okay, why don't you guys just mess around?

Jared Tockstein:

Cuz Kurt's like, what are you doing there?

Jared Tockstein:

He goes, I'm gonna put grape jelly in the eggs.

Jared Tockstein:

He goes, what?

Jared Tockstein:

You know, put jelly.

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, you gonna take the shells out?

Jared Tockstein:

No, no.

Jared Tockstein:

It's part of the formula.

Jared Tockstein:

I, that all just rang very, like, natural and true to me.

Jared Tockstein:

And, it shows me because, I know that, , in real life, Kurt Russell is a father

Jared Tockstein:

and a grandfather and it gave me a glimpse into what I would like to believe

Jared Tockstein:

he's like in real life, , just sort of like, Hey, what are you doing there?

Jared Tockstein:

Oh, oh, you sure you want to?

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

Um,

Katie:

not get outta here with that business.

Katie:

That's not how you make eggs, but

Jared Tockstein:

no, no.

Katie:

just is like,

Jared Tockstein:

Exactly.

Jared Tockstein:

He's, he's sort of like, oh, okay, well sure I'll eat eggs with grape

Jared Tockstein:

jelly mixed in with them, I guess.

Jared Tockstein:

But , that stood out to me as one of my favorite scenes in the movie.

Jared Tockstein:

And of course it's right before his wife tells him like, Hey, don't

Jared Tockstein:

get used to this cuz you can't just be coming around here all the time.

Katie:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

And it's, uh, it's kind of a sad in that way, but, uh, but I, I

Jared Tockstein:

definitely wanted to mention it cuz it was one of my favorite just little scenes.

Katie:

Yeah, I, those little touches are very helpful.

Katie:

I mean, Ron Howard knows what he's doing, right?

Jared Tockstein:

I would think so.

Jared Tockstein:

But I don't, I don't think it's a perfect movie.

Katie:

Oh, no, no.

Katie:

Do tell.

Katie:

No, I ob it

Katie:

only got a 6.7 or something.

Katie:

Yeah.

Katie:

So I don't think

Katie:

everyone loved it.

Jared Tockstein:

and it's not, this is stuff that I wouldn't have

Jared Tockstein:

necessarily, that I didn't really think.

Jared Tockstein:

Watching it as a 16 year old, but , being older and, I can now

Jared Tockstein:

the stuff, all of the nitty gritty stuff with the firemen and the fire,

Jared Tockstein:

that stuff was fascinating to me.

Jared Tockstein:

Just seeing them get ready and, you know, get on the truck , and go to a fire.

Jared Tockstein:

That was some of my favorite stuff in the film.

Katie:

Okay we are back Everyone for those of you hopefully this

Katie:

will seem seamless to those of you listening or watching but Katie had

Katie:

a nice little power outage in her neighborhood and thankfully it was

Katie:

restored pretty quickly but we're back now apologies Jared Thank you for

Katie:

that would happen during the middle

Jared Tockstein:

What's, do you have bad weather out in Denver?

Jared Tockstein:

What's going on?

Katie:

No I don't think so

Jared Tockstein:

It's actually about the storm here in Florida.

Jared Tockstein:

So, if I go away, you'll know why

Katie:

Yes those things do happen from time to time and just never happen to

Katie:

be podcasting During a power outage but now I can add that to the list of things

Katie:

that has happened apologies for that

Jared Tockstein:

It's okay.

Katie:

We were talking about Backdraft and do you remember what oh what's his name

Jared Tockstein:

It's, chewy.

Jared Tockstein:

Like Chewbacca?

Katie:

Oh my

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Katie:

kind of looks like Chewbacca

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

He's colored like him.

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

Get down buddy.

Katie:

Oh my God he's so cute

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, we love him.

Jared Tockstein:

He's a pain in the butt, but we love him.

Katie:

Yeah Aren't they all So you were probably talking to no one for a while

Katie:

Do you remember where you were saying

Jared Tockstein:

I don't know.

Jared Tockstein:

I do know that I kept talking and I saw you had frozen and I kept talking.

Jared Tockstein:

I was like, Katie, Katie, um,

Jared Tockstein:

, Katie: Well at first

Jared Tockstein:

I, and.

Katie:

internet had gone out so I went to restart my router and then

Katie:

I was like wait the lights aren't working all of the electricity was out

Jared Tockstein:

You heard me talking about the scene

Jared Tockstein:

in the kitchen with his son.

Katie:

Yes

Jared Tockstein:

We could just pick it up from there

Katie:

What did you think about the fact that all of the firefighters smoke

Jared Tockstein:

Oh, that, that is one of the coolest scenes in the movie is

Jared Tockstein:

like when the guys, after they put the fire out are coughing and then they light

Jared Tockstein:

up a cigarette and then they're like, oh, and it's like they can breathe again

Jared Tockstein:

now that they're smoking cigarettes.

Katie:

It was an interesting touch I don't know if that's real but I

Katie:

obviously it's just showing like also they very inconsistently wear

Katie:

masks so they're just inhaling

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Katie:

and then they smoke in

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Katie:

the rubble like they can finally relax I mean I guess it's

Jared Tockstein:

Well,

Katie:

situation And so then they smoke to calm down but it's

Jared Tockstein:

yes,

Katie:

of funny

Jared Tockstein:

now I would, I think that the smoking to me makes sense.

Jared Tockstein:

But I did read, some of what, like real firefighters thought of the

Jared Tockstein:

movie and one of the things they had a problem with is that like Kurt Russell,

Jared Tockstein:

you know, sees the mask as weakness.

Jared Tockstein:

know, he's like, he's telling people to hold their breath and charge in

Jared Tockstein:

there and they're like, that would never, you would never do that.

Jared Tockstein:

That is just insane.

Jared Tockstein:

So, , I'm sure there were liberties, , taken to make, Stephen appear

Jared Tockstein:

more, heroic and, you know, awesome.

Katie:

The elevator scene I think I was reading in a similar

Katie:

way that use the elevator in a building that had a fire in it

Jared Tockstein:

oh yeah, that's,

Katie:

in this movie Yeah

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

That totally makes sense.

Jared Tockstein:

I did hear a lot of criticism of this movie and I think this

Jared Tockstein:

is very much artistic license.

Jared Tockstein:

, the movie always talks about the fire being like a demonn that's a living,

Jared Tockstein:

they call it the dragon or something.

Jared Tockstein:

And a lot of fire.

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

And a lot of firefighters.

Jared Tockstein:

Said that, , they found that to be rather, cheesy, that they don't, that a

Jared Tockstein:

lot of them did not see it as a living, breathing thing, which , they certainly

Jared Tockstein:

try to make it like that in this film.

Jared Tockstein:

Like, you know, you can't let the fire know that you're scared of it.

Jared Tockstein:

And a lot of them were very critical of that.

Jared Tockstein:

Kind of like, well, look, the, the fire doesn't know anything

Jared Tockstein:

cuz the fire's not alive.

Jared Tockstein:

, it's a thing.

Jared Tockstein:

We're trying to, now you can, they did say you, you can know things about a

Jared Tockstein:

fire, the way a fire will behave, , in environments and things like that.

Jared Tockstein:

But as far as the fire being some kind of dragon or demonn, who's, who wants to

Jared Tockstein:

know if you're scared of it, that they said that's a little, , Hollywood there,

Katie:

Yeah I can see

Jared Tockstein:

I thought watching the movie that stuff

Jared Tockstein:

was a little bit cringey.

Jared Tockstein:

Especially, it's like you can't show it.

Jared Tockstein:

You're afraid of it, and which I probably thought was cool as a youngster,

Jared Tockstein:

but today it's like, eh, maybe not.

Katie:

I agree with you I guess the story arc happens so it's a long movie and I

Katie:

have no problem with a long movie if the story warrants it But in this case I do

Katie:

feel like they could have tightened it up a bit but the end sequence there's

Katie:

kind of like a series of end sequences

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Katie:

to your point about the the monster the animal we do see how differing

Katie:

the brothers are that Steven is the older brother he's the brave one he's

Katie:

the known as the hero and he doesn't Hesitate he will go in without which

Katie:

is actually a fault He will go into a situation without backup and then that

Katie:

gets people hurt and killed but it also saves lives So he you know I can

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

of it Whereas Brian I guess I don't really buy So the idea is that

Katie:

it's a little too real for him first few experiences And so then he goes to

Katie:

work with the investigator then spoiler alert after his brother dies and he

Katie:

saves him he so there's a sequence where it's like too much to cover Kurt

Katie:

Russell's character fights with who we find out is the true arsonist which is

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

Ax.

Katie:

Who by the way that actor perpetually looks like he's 55 years old

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

Scott Glenn.

Katie:

Yeah Like

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Katie:

same age always

Jared Tockstein:

I agree.

Katie:

It wasn't a menacing reason It was just that these crooked

Katie:

politicians were getting his friends killed for money And so then he's

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Katie:

controlled fires They find out about it There's a whole standoff there's

Katie:

a scene where and Stephen fall don't see on screen that acts dies There's it's

Katie:

kind of we're left to kind of wonder but Steven is Severely injured And in order

Katie:

for him to get rescued his little brother who's been afraid of the fire now has to

Katie:

conquer his fears and he does it And so then we get an ending scene where he steps

Katie:

into Steven's shoes helps the new probies He's a firefighter He's not pushing

Katie:

paper any longer He's he's an active firefighter so he kind of comes circle

Katie:

I mean that that is not very realistic but it's very much a Ron Howard movie

Jared Tockstein:

I thought the, , and I don't know if , this kind of thing.

Jared Tockstein:

Is a trope of that time, but it feels to me like it is, , where

Jared Tockstein:

the villain of the piece is.

Jared Tockstein:

This.

Jared Tockstein:

I don't really like how it turned into a corporate espionage.

Jared Tockstein:

Type of movie.

Jared Tockstein:

, and it feels like another one of my favorite movies from this time period

Jared Tockstein:

is The Fugitive, , with Harrison Ford.

Jared Tockstein:

That also, I think it's a little better done in the Fugitive, but it, it seems

Jared Tockstein:

like movies of this time, a lot of the enemies ended up being these faceless,

Jared Tockstein:

you know, corporate overlords who were trying to do something nefarious.

Katie:

Mm-hmm

Jared Tockstein:

For this movie, I don't know, I, I think maybe it got down a

Jared Tockstein:

little bit too much in the weeds on this stuff because it turned into like

Jared Tockstein:

a detective story and, I'm not a hundred percent sold that it really worked.

Jared Tockstein:

It's fine for the story they were telling, but, you know, watching it

Jared Tockstein:

with today's eyes, I just wish maybe we were doing a little more of the,

Jared Tockstein:

the nitty gritty of the firefighting and what their lives are like.

Jared Tockstein:

Instead of sort of throwing in this subplot of this

Jared Tockstein:

detective story on top of it

Katie:

I agree it.

Katie:

is it's like almost too much to even quickly the the movie there's so much it

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Katie:

didn't need to be there

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

it's more complicated that it's not just the arsonist Like Donald

Katie:

Sutherland who just gets a kick out of he likes fire and he likes the

Katie:

destruction of it whereas that's not what this was And the Donald Sutherland

Katie:

character helps Brian connect the dots that based on the back draft nature of

Katie:

these Arsons that it's very controlled

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

not a lot of destruction It's just the one person is hit And so lies

Katie:

oh well it must be someone who knows what they're doing a k f firefighter

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

And then there's the whole he thinks his brother did it and

Katie:

then the brothers figure it out at the same time is just a lot to it

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

And they're, saying to Scott, Glenn's character, you set me up and it's,

Jared Tockstein:

and I didn't buy for a minute, even when I was 16 and saw this in the theater,

Jared Tockstein:

that Kurt Russell was the bad guy.

Jared Tockstein:

Like that.

Jared Tockstein:

That just, I was like, I don't, I'm not buying this at all.

Jared Tockstein:

So if that's what the movie was trying to make me think that didn't land.

Jared Tockstein:

But I, I do think that the arson scenes, allowed us to spend more

Jared Tockstein:

time with, Robert De Niro, which was, it was always cool watching the

Jared Tockstein:

gears turn in his head as he's trying to figure out, why this happened.

Jared Tockstein:

And I'm not even against them making this movie like a crime

Jared Tockstein:

movie, which ultimately it is.

Jared Tockstein:

Because I think it's interesting that this person.

Jared Tockstein:

I think I, what I'm saying is I would love to see a movie about Robert De Niro

Jared Tockstein:

trying to figure out why, if they're just chasing like a crazy arsonist, like

Jared Tockstein:

maybe Robert De Niro's, a prequel with Robert De Niro and Donald Sutherland,

Jared Tockstein:

like how the, because they kind of told.

Jared Tockstein:

they told his story in the movie and he, he's responsible for the

Jared Tockstein:

burns all over de Niro's body.

Jared Tockstein:

That to me sounded kind of super interesting.

Katie:

Janeiro's character saves criminal right Isn't that how he got the burns

Jared Tockstein:

I think it wasn't it Ronald that gave him the burns

Jared Tockstein:

because they, he said it because the.

Jared Tockstein:

The, the ash or whatever left his shadow.

Jared Tockstein:

That's why he called him his shadow because it left Robert de Niro's an

Jared Tockstein:

imprint of his shadow on the wall because he was engulfed in flames.

Jared Tockstein:

That's all to say that I just wish it was a little, it, I think it could have

Jared Tockstein:

been a little simpler and scaled down.

Jared Tockstein:

Like you said, it's hard to even explain what in the end is all this is about

Katie:

much

Jared Tockstein:

and, and so, and some, somehow Swayze is, you know, he's involved

Jared Tockstein:

in this and you think he's gonna be taken down but you don't see that happen.

Jared Tockstein:

We go from him going, oh, you'll have to talk to my attorneys,

Jared Tockstein:

and then we go to the funeral.

Katie:

Mm-hmm

Jared Tockstein:

I think it got a little too ambitious.

Katie:

a better way of putting it I was gonna ask you actually about and

Katie:

I think this was purposefully done but We see the funeral shortly after

Katie:

the ambulance ride So Kurt Russell's character's not dead He's in an ambulance

Katie:

but then he dies in the ambulance and they're trying to revive him And we

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

to bagpipes and uh funeral procession but because we don't actually

Katie:

see Scott Glenn's character die it's sort of assumed so I think they were

Katie:

trying to make us think there was hope the funeral was for Acts and not Steven

Katie:

that's it's possibly Steven They were able to revive him But then we learn as we

Katie:

continue to watch the funeral scene that the funerals actually for both of them

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

Ax have a combined funeral because Steven asks Brian not to

Katie:

make it known that the arsonist was X

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

Which I thought, which I think, then I wonder if is Ax, he's like

Jared Tockstein:

the missing piece of the puzzle.

Jared Tockstein:

, I don't know if without ax if you could connect, , Swayze to the

Jared Tockstein:

events of what happened and maybe you can't and maybe they don't get to.

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, even in the sequel doesn't go into this at all.

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, it's not even

Katie:

is it

Jared Tockstein:

they, um, the.

Katie:

actors obviously but

Jared Tockstein:

Billy Baldwin comes back as, does do Donald Sutherland.

Katie:

that's kind of

Jared Tockstein:

Um,

Katie:

actually

Jared Tockstein:

The main character is Kurt Russell's son, who is

Jared Tockstein:

now, , does the job that Robert De Niro did in the first movie.

Jared Tockstein:

He's an investigator.

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, it sounds way more cool than it actually is

Jared Tockstein:

, Katie: I was gonna say this sounds not

Jared Tockstein:

it's.

Jared Tockstein:

Well, I noticed when I was watching it on two B, cuz that's

Jared Tockstein:

the way I watched Backdraft.

Jared Tockstein:

And interestingly enough, on the day we're recording this, there's

Jared Tockstein:

only one day left to watch back draft and Backdraft two on two B

Jared Tockstein:

. Katie: Wow

Jared Tockstein:

So, uh, and so I wa I started watching the sequel just

Jared Tockstein:

because, I mean, it was there and I was like, oh, well, we'll see what they did.

Jared Tockstein:

It was a maid for.

Jared Tockstein:

Video production, it was never exhibited theatrically.

Jared Tockstein:

And you can tell that it has a kind of a TV feel.

Jared Tockstein:

The guy who plays Kurt Russell's son is pretty good.

Jared Tockstein:

But Billy Baldwin.

Jared Tockstein:

Okay, so obviously this is 30 years later, he, , He's almost indistinguishable now

Jared Tockstein:

from Alec in appearance and in voice.

Katie:

Okay so he is

Jared Tockstein:

It's,

Katie:

the best looking brother now

Jared Tockstein:

no, I thought when I was watching it, I was like, holy crap.

Jared Tockstein:

He just turned into Alec.

Jared Tockstein:

That's what happened to him.

Jared Tockstein:

And it's not a great movie.

Jared Tockstein:

It's certainly not as good as Backdraft.

Jared Tockstein:

And you could tell they're working from a smaller budget.

Jared Tockstein:

And, Kurt Russell only appears in a photograph, so, no flashbacks

Jared Tockstein:

with him or anything, so you're not really missing anything.

Jared Tockstein:

But, the ending , is very impressive because , I just wonder if.

Jared Tockstein:

You have this gigantic procession in Chicago and I really love that

Jared Tockstein:

kind of stuff, like the pageantry with the guys and the kilts playing

Jared Tockstein:

the bagpipes and with the families walking behind the caskets And, I just

Jared Tockstein:

wonder if that's something that was.

Jared Tockstein:

Staged for the film.

Jared Tockstein:

Obviously it would probably be disrespectful to actually say, Hey, can we

Jared Tockstein:

film your funeral and put it in Backdraft?

Jared Tockstein:

But this being the early nineties, that's something that took, that's

Jared Tockstein:

not computer generated imagery.

Jared Tockstein:

Those are thousands of firemen in kilts playing bagpipes,

Jared Tockstein:

, parading down a Chicago street.

Jared Tockstein:

So that's not an insignificant thing to stage, I would imagine.

Katie:

Good point And yes there is something about a service member's Funeral

Katie:

with bagpipes or the horn there's just something about it and and it plays well

Katie:

in movies O obviously because it plays well in real life It's very emotional

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah, because these people, who do this job, they're,

Jared Tockstein:

kind of like, Heroes in that way, cuz I mean, none of us, they're none.

Jared Tockstein:

None of us are running into burning buildings and probably that's why I

Jared Tockstein:

say my favorite parts of the movie are sort of the ground level, , them in the

Jared Tockstein:

firehouse and they're getting a call.

Jared Tockstein:

And at the beginning of the movie, I thought it was well

Jared Tockstein:

done the flashback to 1971.

Jared Tockstein:

I thought all that stuff was great too, cuz it's just, it felt like you were,

Jared Tockstein:

you felt like you were kind of in on something and you were watching something

Jared Tockstein:

that you don't get to see as sort of a civilian, it's like these guys, they

Jared Tockstein:

sit around and goof off at the firehouse, but then when it comes, everybody's

Jared Tockstein:

grabbing their stuff and getting on the trucks and, it's really cool.

Katie:

I like that in movies as well The camaraderie between whether it's a

Katie:

military movie or a police or fire People

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

I also very much enjoy that I did read that the screenwriter Gregory he was

Katie:

actually a firefighter for a few years

Jared Tockstein:

Oh, wow.

Jared Tockstein:

Well, it makes sense.

Katie:

the the film is based on a death of a friend of his in an actual back draft

Jared Tockstein:

Oh, wow.

Katie:

so the

Jared Tockstein:

Goodness.

Katie:

they ma they Hollywood it up

Jared Tockstein:

At the end of the movie.

Jared Tockstein:

I like that they give , that little tagline, there are x

Jared Tockstein:

amount of men and women today serving actively as firefighters.

Jared Tockstein:

, which is, , it's a good way to sort of bring the movie back down to earth.

Jared Tockstein:

After we've got into, the political espionage and the big detective

Jared Tockstein:

story, it sort of brings it back to what the movie is about.

Jared Tockstein:

And that's the people who fight fires.

Katie:

Yes Agreed was just thinking to your point about what do they have

Katie:

on Swayze to arrest him because then after the funeral scene so there's

Katie:

this scene where Robert 10 Niro and Billy Baldwin go in and and have sway

Katie:

Zack arrested But it's like based on what if you can't say that Adcock

Katie:

I guess she risks her job to get confidential or or

Katie:

something that she's not,

Jared Tockstein:

that's true.

Katie:

So on her boss

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Jared Tockstein:

Maybe that put him away.

Jared Tockstein:

Well, we kind of have to assume that's what happened and you know,

Katie:

then so so that's his last as um part of the investigative office because

Katie:

he goes back to active duty I did think it was although it's very Hollywood

Katie:

did like the very end scene of them going on a call with the new the new

Jared Tockstein:

and he fixes his jacket.

Jared Tockstein:

. Katie: Yeah, he's, like

Jared Tockstein:

yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

he's Yeah.

Katie:

into his brother's shoes cuz it was a family drama There were a

Katie:

lot of themes actually now that we're talking through this It was too much

Katie:

crammed in one movie but was enjoyable

Jared Tockstein:

I think,

Jared Tockstein:

oh, I, I'm not sorry that I revisited it.

Jared Tockstein:

I think if it hadn't aimed so high as far as, like I said, this

Jared Tockstein:

espionage and detective story.

Jared Tockstein:

And, I think it could have been, , a great movie if you just keep it on the

Jared Tockstein:

ground level and hey, maybe we're dealing with just some psycho crook or something

Jared Tockstein:

and, , who's setting these things?

Jared Tockstein:

I don't think you needed to make it a bigger thing, but, um, You know,

Jared Tockstein:

it's, for me, it, I would say it mostly still held up, um, aside from

Jared Tockstein:

what, what I talked about earlier, some of the cringing year stuff.

Jared Tockstein:

But, um, I still enjoyed, I enjoyed revisiting it.

Katie:

it is I would recommend people give it a rewatch It's it is visually pleasing

Katie:

The effects I think are pretty good

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

There's some trivia here So I don't know if you noticed in the credits that

Katie:

of the actors Kurt Russell Kevin Casey Scott Glenn William Baldwin actually they

Katie:

did a lot of their own stunts So much so that the stunt coordinator listed them as

Katie:

stunt performers in the credits Did you

Jared Tockstein:

wow.

Jared Tockstein:

No, I didn't.

Jared Tockstein:

I didn't know that.

Jared Tockstein:

That is cool.

Jared Tockstein:

And I,

Katie:

prepare on the similar way Baldwin and Russell went to bootcamp

Jared Tockstein:

yeah.

Katie:

to learn the ropes and they slept in a Chicago

Katie:

firehouse for a month to prepare

Jared Tockstein:

they go on any calls

Katie:

I don't know I

Jared Tockstein:

I I would imagine that the insurance company would

Jared Tockstein:

maybe have a problem with that.

Katie:

Maybe they got to ride along but they had to stay in the

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Katie:

the beginning of movie little kid gets to go on a call and that's

Katie:

how he witnesses father's death So

Jared Tockstein:

yes.

Jared Tockstein:

Which I gotta say, . I do like the kind of the through line

Jared Tockstein:

of the Life Magazine picture,

Katie:

Mm

Jared Tockstein:

Of, Brian as a little kid.

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

I think that's just an interesting little slice of life.

Jared Tockstein:

Just having this kid who was once famous for being on this iconic magazine

Jared Tockstein:

cover and now he's grown up and.

Jared Tockstein:

Some people sort of hold it against him.

Jared Tockstein:

It's like, oh, hey look, it's the magazine guy, and that's some, and

Jared Tockstein:

that's something that maybe he, it's almost like a legacy he doesn't want

Jared Tockstein:

but comes to embrace in the end.

Jared Tockstein:

So,

Katie:

I like that

Jared Tockstein:

I think the whole Life magazine was a really cool touch.

Katie:

So were talking about the funeral and how many extras that must

Katie:

have taken to create that scene just

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah.

Katie:

the movie a lot of the extras were real Chicago

Katie:

firefighters that were in scenes

Jared Tockstein:

Oh yeah, that I would have no doubt about that, cuz

Jared Tockstein:

that would've been sort of an easy way to get a lot of people on board.

Jared Tockstein:

Like, Hey, we're shooting a movie.

Jared Tockstein:

You wanna show up in your uniform and.

Jared Tockstein:

I bet a lot of those guys got a kick out of it.

Katie:

So there's a few casting what ifs I don't know if you read about for example

Katie:

in an interesting twist of faith Brad Pitt actually wanted the role of Brian he ha

Katie:

he would've had to been released from his contract to play small role in Thelman

Katie:

Louise So Brad Pitt was in film on Louise

Jared Tockstein:

Yes.

Katie:

so they they swapped roles So

Jared Tockstein:

Oh,

Katie:

So originally Billy Baldwin was supposed to be Brad Pitt's character

Katie:

in Thelman Louise They kind of ended up switching roles I'm actually glad

Katie:

that it worked out the way it did because I think Brad Pit is famous

Katie:

for his thumb and Louise scenes

Jared Tockstein:

sure.

Jared Tockstein:

And well, I mean, but you turn that around, , Billy

Jared Tockstein:

Baldwin sort of disappeared.

Jared Tockstein:

. He did a couple of like thriller

Jared Tockstein:

really don't hear from him.

Jared Tockstein:

, as much anymore.

Jared Tockstein:

I was surprised, the Backdraft two was 2019 and he was in that.

Jared Tockstein:

I just thought, like when I was watching this, , Billy Baldwin, he was kind

Jared Tockstein:

of a, the it guy for, for a Bennett there in the nineties in Hollywood.

Jared Tockstein:

, and uh, then he just sort of, faded away.

Katie:

did I saw him in a short-lived drama series about it

Katie:

was a Sort of succession like a

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

rich powerful family like that And it was in the maybe I

Katie:

don't know 2015 ish I wanna say money

Katie:

that And anyway

Katie:

you're right Outside of that I don't really remember anything recently

Katie:

Another person that was considered speaking of the Baldwins for Brian was

Katie:

Alec considered For that role but he turned it down and he recommended his

Katie:

brother Billy That's I think how he ended

Jared Tockstein:

Well,

Jared Tockstein:

, Katie: role

Jared Tockstein:

you go.

Jared Tockstein:

seems to me that,

Jared Tockstein:

I think the age difference works because, Alec is a lot closer to Kurt.

Katie:

Yeah

Jared Tockstein:

In age.

Jared Tockstein:

I mean, there would only be a couple of years difference.

Jared Tockstein:

And the there, it looks like there's at least five or 10 years even between

Jared Tockstein:

Billy Baldwin and Kurt Russell.

Jared Tockstein:

I'm not sure how old Billy Baldwin is.

Jared Tockstein:

I guess I could use my magic box and find out.

Katie:

there well I guess in real life those two have like a 12

Katie:

year age difference but in the

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Katie:

we're shown the little boy Brian looks to be seven or eight and the

Katie:

brother looks to be like a A 13 ish maybe

Jared Tockstein:

He's a teenager.

Jared Tockstein:

Billy Baldwin is currently 60 years old,

Katie:

that yeah

Jared Tockstein:

so he would've been 28.

Katie:

That tracks kurt Russell was playing

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

I think that.

Katie:

younger than he actually is in

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

Well, he could get away with it.

Katie:

Yeah he can he certainly can Yeah Can you tell that I very

Katie:

much liked watching him in this movie

Jared Tockstein:

No.

Jared Tockstein:

I had no idea

Katie:

you guys he looks really good in it some other actors that that

Katie:

tested for this in the role of Brian Keanu Reeves which I'm glad that I

Katie:

I can't really see that And Robert Downey Jr Who probably would've been

Katie:

really good I think Robert Downey Jr Would've been good in the Brian role

Jared Tockstein:

I could see that.

Jared Tockstein:

Absolutely.

Katie:

And then several others turned it down

Jared Tockstein:

okay.

Katie:

Johnny Depp Matt Dillon and Val Kilmer All four of those maybe

Katie:

they were like so hot at the time

Jared Tockstein:

Yeah, they were pretty big stars.

Jared Tockstein:

, I wouldn't say Billy Baldwin is the lead of this movie.

Katie:

No he's not

Jared Tockstein:

So I can understand like, you know, Tom Cruise, by

Jared Tockstein:

this time was a movie star, so I can understand why he wouldn't.

Jared Tockstein:

to take this role?

Jared Tockstein:

Val Kilmer was also very hot in the early nineties.

Jared Tockstein:

So yeah, that makes sense to me.

Katie:

Then the only other one that I could find who they considered Steven

Katie:

slash Bull his nickname I don't know if we talked about the fact that his

Katie:

nickname in the movie is Bull He's both

Jared Tockstein:

Bowl.

Katie:

Boll McCaffrey

Jared Tockstein:

Mm-hmm.

Katie:

this Rolldown So originally I guess studio or Ron Howard wanted Dennis Wade

Jared Tockstein:

Well, I could totally see Dennis Qua in this role too.

Katie:

Same

Jared Tockstein:

It's something that's totally, him and Kurt

Jared Tockstein:

Russell are of a similar vintage

Jared Tockstein:

. Katie: Mm-hmm

Jared Tockstein:

And, , I could definitely see that.

Jared Tockstein:

but I'm glad that, that Kurt ended up doing it, obviously.

Katie:

Me too

Katie:

I agree I'm very glad Kurt Russell was in this movie now here's a

Katie:

little bit I didn't realize that there's a long running tradition

Katie:

with Ron Howard casting his brother

Jared Tockstein:

Clint, yes.

Katie:

in apparent I didn't know that was a thing that he did

Jared Tockstein:

Oh, yes,

Katie:

I did recognize him as the morgue guy The pathologist

Jared Tockstein:

yes.

Jared Tockstein:

I love Clint Howard.

Jared Tockstein:

I have some sort of weird fascination with Clint Howard.

Jared Tockstein:

I don't know why.

Jared Tockstein:

I just, he is cast in most all of his.

Jared Tockstein:

I think there was one he didn't do, but, every time I see Iran, Howard movie,

Jared Tockstein:

I'm always on the lookout for Clint.

Jared Tockstein:

Um, and.

Katie:

he's a very serviceable actor

Jared Tockstein:

Yes, absolutely.

Jared Tockstein:

He's great in Apollo 13.

Jared Tockstein:

He has a small role as one of the mission control guys, and he's really good.

Jared Tockstein:

I also follow him on Instagram.

Jared Tockstein:

and he, he, he's,

Katie:

or not funny things

Jared Tockstein:

He's bad shit.

Jared Tockstein:

Crazy

Jared Tockstein:

. Katie: Oh

Jared Tockstein:

But in, in a funny way, like he just, he'll walk around

Jared Tockstein:

and , he'll just showing weird signs or weird shops that he's in.

Jared Tockstein:

He's a very quirky guy but he's a lot of fun To follow.

Jared Tockstein:

, he's the reason that I'm so into him when he was a little boy, cuz he, him

Jared Tockstein:

and Ron have been acting for, decades when he was a little boy, he played an

Jared Tockstein:

alien on the original Star Trek TV show.

Katie:

Okay

Jared Tockstein:

And his name was Baylock and I was obsessed

Jared Tockstein:

and still am to some degree.

Jared Tockstein:

So, every year, my friend, he posts this happy birthday meme with a picture of

Jared Tockstein:

Clint Howard as Baylock and, my friend last year tagged Kurt Howard in it.

Jared Tockstein:

Happy birthday, Jared.

Jared Tockstein:

And he put this dumb picture.

Jared Tockstein:

And then Kurt Howard liked the . Clint Howard liked the birthday message . And I

Jared Tockstein:

was like, okay, well my life's complete.

Jared Tockstein:

You know, I feel like Clint Howard

Katie:

so many about famous people it's that's you are probably the

Katie:

life of the party at every party

Jared Tockstein:

No, I doubt it.

Jared Tockstein:

I try sometimes I just, it's just these things pop up in my

Jared Tockstein:

memory and I'm like, oh gosh.

Jared Tockstein:

I feel lucky that I've had some of the experiences I've had.

Jared Tockstein:

it hasn't been boring, but, um, but Clint Howard, Oh, geez.

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, you know, I, I'll come on, uh, retro made and tell you all

Jared Tockstein:

about it when it's finished.

Jared Tockstein:

we'll do that if you will allow me to

Jared Tockstein:

. Katie: Not a chance No

Jared Tockstein:

Okay.

Jared Tockstein:

Gotcha.

Jared Tockstein:

. Oh, I don't know.

Jared Tockstein:

I'd probably, I don't have enough money to, for the lawsuits

Jared Tockstein:

that would follow probably

Katie:

That's awesome That's a really good point change the names

Katie:

I mean we barely scratched the surface it feels like because there is a lot

Katie:

to backdraft But we're gonna try and wrap it up now We could go on

Katie:

forever but we do have to return to the present day Do you have any closing

Katie:

thoughts about the movie or 1991

Jared Tockstein:

No, just, it was fun to go back and watch

Jared Tockstein:

it, with my middle-aged eyes.

Jared Tockstein:

, there I was surprised by how much stuff that I still remembered from,

Jared Tockstein:

not having seen it in so many years.

Jared Tockstein:

And, , great soundtrack from Han Zimmer that can, , you can play that

Jared Tockstein:

on its own and it's quite great.

Jared Tockstein:

And looking at it now, it's, , certainly not a perfect movie.

Jared Tockstein:

There's things in it that bug me, but, it was fun to revisit and my parting

Jared Tockstein:

advice is, uh, don't watch Backdraft too

Katie:

That's perfect That's perfect I love it Thank you so much Jared for

Katie:

joining me to cover this blockbuster action thriller some other genre too from

Jared Tockstein:

Yes, , I had a blast.

Jared Tockstein:

This is a fun show to do for sure.

Katie:

Thank you

Jared Tockstein:

It's way better, way more fun than Ryan

Katie:

I hope he listens to that specific piece

Jared Tockstein:

Oh, I'll make sure that he does

Katie:

make sure that he does it's fun actually speaking of the

Katie:

three of us just just spent some time covering Rocky too the latest

Jared Tockstein:

Yes,

Katie:

of one More Round

Jared Tockstein:

absolutely.

Jared Tockstein:

Very fun.

Katie:

what else do you have going on You have tell us where people can find you

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, well.

Jared Tockstein:

If, uh, you want to check out our website, we have a website

Jared Tockstein:

called the hyperspace.net.

Jared Tockstein:

We are available every place you listen to podcast.

Jared Tockstein:

Any place you can find retro made, you can find the hyperspace.

Jared Tockstein:

And, we also have, Uh, YouTube channel, , that , we keep saying we're

Jared Tockstein:

trying to grow, but we haven't quite got there yet, but, the hyperspace

Jared Tockstein:

podcasting in the 25th century.

Jared Tockstein:

Uh, just look, we, we've got a cool logo with a robot holding

Jared Tockstein:

a microphone and you'll know that you've found the right one.

Jared Tockstein:

So, , give us a listen if you like retro made.

Jared Tockstein:

I think you may like the hyperspace.

Katie:

Agreed It's probably the only podcasting in the 25th century

Jared Tockstein:

Oh yeah.

Jared Tockstein:

We're the only podcast in the 25th century.

Jared Tockstein:

We like to, to tell people that a lot, we're the only

Jared Tockstein:

show in the 25th century, so.

Katie:

Ah awesome well if you haven't already follow Retro Made on your

Katie:

podcast app of Choice and subscribe to the Retro Made Podcast YouTube

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